Question Do I Need a Better Technique or Warmer Undergarments

[Ryan Neely]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I really appreciate it.

To clarify a couple of points raises in the reaponses: I do wear a Waterproof H1 5/10mm hood which keeps my head at a good temperature, and when the skirt tucks into the collar of my drysuit my neck is also comfortable.

The drysuit does fit well. We drive out to Dive Right in Scuba way back when to be measured and ordered a custom suit based on those measurements. Since then, the only body composition that has changed are my calves (thanks to a more aggressive cycling regime during the winter), but they haven't grown so much as to make the suit tight.

Regarding body composition, I have no problem sharing this information (and I will), though I am curious how a more objective opinion might be formed given that data. I am male and am 5'9" tall, weigh 185 lbs. and have approximately 20% body fat. (I can almost see my abs through my belly fat! Whoa!) My lower body has more well-developed musculature compared to my upper body (i.e., my thighs and calves are huge but I have what could be described as a concave chest, tiny arms, and the back strength of an infant; I can perform a single unassisted pull up).

That being said, I do find that post chemotherapy and radiation treatment for Hodgkins lymphoma I have been much colder on a regular basis. During the BC (before cancer) years, I was one of those hot bodies who would regularly feel overheated sitting around a winter day in shorts and a t-shirt (perhaps an oft neglected symptom of the cancer formation). AD (after diagnosis), I find myself wearing multiple layers on a 70° day while standing in the sun.

I would like to ask a follow up question regarding air volume in the suit. How much squeeze is too much? While diving, I do add air to the suit, bit just enough. I don't get out of the water with marks on my arms, but while in the water I can visibly see that "shrink wrap" look in my suit. My mobility is unaffected by this (e.g., I can still reach my valve) but it does make me wonder if I'm not adding enough tobloft the undergarments.

Thanks again for your help!

 

[Mr. Dooley]

I would like to ask a follow up question regarding air volume in the suit. How much squeeze is too much? While diving, I do add air to the suit, bit just enough. I don't get out of the water with marks on my arms, but while in the water I can visibly see that "shrink wrap" look in my suit. My mobility is unaffected by this (e.g., I can still reach my valve) but it does make me wonder if I'm not adding enough tobloft the undergarments.

For many, the default amount of air in the drysuit is "just enough" to ensure comfort and prevent squeeze. At the same time I know divers who, when diving particularly cold waters, will add a couple extra pounds of lead allowing them to inflate their suit a bit more while staying neutral, presumably adding warmth. Some divers rely solely on their drysuit to manage buoyancy after descent. It's a bit personal. It sounds like you're diving a trilam suit, in which case yes - it can be wrinkly while diving, given the excess room left in those suits when tailoring to allow for undergarments.

Your body composition and stature are typical, and I wouldn't think cycling-induced calf growth would have any impact. I think feeling the cold in the arms / torso first is pretty standard. Sometimes feet of course if the socks are no good. I have no idea how oncological matters impact diving - but congrats on being post-chemo.

I'm no expert but I dive cold regularly. I suspect this is a case of your undergarments simply being insufficient. Being familiar with the Arctics I wouldn't dive the waters you describe with them - not warm enough for me. Arctics are not designed for the coldest conditions - despite their name - at least not without using a ton of layering. Either upgrade your Arctics to Thermal Fusion, Halo, etc. or increase your base layering.

As others have mentioned, more warmth promotes diffusion - meaning you'll absorb more nitrogen on the deeper portions of your dive if you're very warm, and you'll also off gas it quicker as well. Some might argue the "ideal" thermal experience would to be slightly chilled (not freezing!) at the deep portion of a dive to minimize nitrogen absorption, and to be nice and warm during the shallower portion to promote more efficient decompression. For me, in practice, I just try to stay relatively comfortable the whole time - not overheating and not shivering. But if you do deeper + longer / planned decompression dives in cold water, thermals are a real factor. Ideally not shivering during safety / deco stops as a cold body decompresses less efficiently.

 

[Cio]

Adding more air will give you extra warmth, 42F is a water temp where you don't want "just enough" . Not too much but the insulation properties are adjustable by the amount of squeeze. Normally, I keep the dump all the way open. when it gets colder, I close it some and add more air. (it's kind like a thermostat. )

 

[Brett Hatch]

Adding more air will give you extra warmth, 42F is a water temp where you don't want "just enough" . Not too much but the insulation properties are adjustable by the amount of squeeze. Normally, I keep the dump all the way open. when it gets colder, I close it some and add more air. (it's kind like a thermostat. )

I do the same, but I try not to. Meaning, if I have to add gas to the suit, next time I'll try to add a layer instead. This is because extra air in the suit is a PITA (to me at least, maybe it bothers you less). So yeah it's better to have an air bubble than it is to be cold, but it's better still to wear enough clothes.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I really appreciate it.

To clarify a couple of points raises in the reaponses: I do wear a Waterproof H1 5/10mm hood which keeps my head at a good temperature, and when the skirt tucks into the collar of my drysuit my neck is also comfortable.

The drysuit does fit well. We drive out to Dive Right in Scuba way back when to be measured and ordered a custom suit based on those measurements. Since then, the only body composition that has changed are my calves (thanks to a more aggressive cycling regime during the winter), but they haven't grown so much as to make the suit tight.

Regarding body composition, I have no problem sharing this information (and I will), though I am curious how a more objective opinion might be formed given that data. I am male and am 5'9" tall, weigh 185 lbs. and have approximately 20% body fat. (I can almost see my abs through my belly fat! Whoa!) My lower body has more well-developed musculature compared to my upper body (i.e., my thighs and calves are huge but I have what could be described as a concave chest, tiny arms, and the back strength of an infant; I can perform a single unassisted pull up).

That being said, I do find that post chemotherapy and radiation treatment for Hodgkins lymphoma I have been much colder on a regular basis. During the BC (before cancer) years, I was one of those hot bodies who would regularly feel overheated sitting around a winter day in shorts and a t-shirt (perhaps an oft neglected symptom of the cancer formation). AD (after diagnosis), I find myself wearing multiple layers on a 70° day while standing in the sun.

I would like to ask a follow up question regarding air volume in the suit. How much squeeze is too much? While diving, I do add air to the suit, bit just enough. I don't get out of the water with marks on my arms, but while in the water I can visibly see that "shrink wrap" look in my suit. My mobility is unaffected by this (e.g., I can still reach my valve) but it does make me wonder if I'm not adding enough tobloft the undergarments.

Thanks again for your help!

Ryan, it sounds like your hood's good, your suit's good, and your neck's also good. That just leaves the undies, which seem to be insufficient for the conditions.

Before shelling out for an entirely new set of undies, you might try adding some layers first. Since you live in Minnesota, I imagine you'll have some layerable clothes laying around -- maybe a couple of thin wool base layers you can add on, or a wool sweater. Avoid cotton and any other non-wicking fabrics. But if that doesn't help, then you might need a separate set for the colder months, as you said.

Edit to add: it sounds like your venting technique is fine, by the way. One tip I learned from ScubaBoard is that after you make your initial descent, say at 10 feet deep, you can puff your suit up a bit, to intentionally create an air bubble. Go head-down a bit to bring the bubble down to your legs and feet, then go slightly head-up move the bubble past your torso into your right arm, and then to your left arm, and then vent the bubble out. As you do this, wiggle your body around inside your suit. The bubble will loosen things up, and wiggling around will help your drysuit and underwear to settle into a natural position, and relieving any twists or wrinkles.

Once I've done that, I leave my vent open for the remainder of the dive, and add a squirt or two of gas whenever I descend. If I feel a bubble (usually in my feet, and usually while ascending), I vent it out. And yeah, the suit looks a little wrinkly from the outside, but I only have markings on my skin if I didn't add gas while descending. If you haven't got any marks, then you probably are diving with enough gas inside.

 

[Ontwreckdiver]

For the details, I wear Brynje Merino wool Mesh base layers under 200g Smart Wool Merino wool standard base layer under Fourth Element Arctic two-piece (top and bottom). I also wear Merino wool socks as a base layer under Fourth Element Arctic Socks and Smart Wool Cozy Gloves under my dry gloves. The water temperature was 42°F at a depth of 35 feet in a flooded iron mine.

Here's another thought, you could be wearing too much underwear and your sweating and causing you to be cold. Up here in the Great Lakes, I wear Mares 200 g underwear over Marks micro fleece underwear and a pair of Marks T-Max heat thermal socks. Mares 6.5mm wet gloves.

 

[davecampbell]

1 of my last charters, just for reference...

Seaskin Nova, Seaskin 250 thermals, Seaskin wicking base layer, merino smartwool socks, K01 hood, drygloves with single liner.

Lake Ontario Tiller Wreck 110ffw @ 39°F. 2 dives approx. 45mins each with a 1 hr SI. Slightly cool, but never chilled. I think I'd have a hard time wearing as many layers as some people wear, just in terms of mobility.

 

[Ryan Neely]

For what it's worth, here's an update. The water temperatures have been increasing over the summer, and I'm feeling very comfortable above the thermocline (where the water is in the high 50s and low 60s). Below the thermocline (where the temps are in the high 30s and low 40s), as long as I'm moving, I feel "okay." Stop moving and I'm chilled.

So, there is am argument for warmer undergarments. I will continue to update as that adventure progresses.

 

[Thrutch]

For what it's worth, here's an update. The water temperatures have been increasing over the summer, and I'm feeling very comfortable above the thermocline (where the water is in the high 50s and low 60s). Below the thermocline (where the temps are in the high 30s and low 40s), as long as I'm moving, I feel "okay." Stop moving and I'm chilled.

So, there is am argument for warmer undergarments. I will continue to update as that adventure progresses.

For 100-minute dives in a trilam at 39F without getting too cold for safe deco at the end, I'm in an expedition-weight wool baselayer, 250g-weight fleece vest, Santi BZ400x, Fourth Element Hotfoot Pro with thin wool socks underneath, and dry gloves with a wool and 40g-weight thinsulate glove. Hood is the Waterproof 10/5 with the bib tucked in. Drysuit has crushed neo socks that I put in NRS paddle boots (2 sizes up in winter to accomodate the fluff).

All that plus a good breakfast (extremely important) and I don't feel the cold for about 45 minutes. After that, I can feel it slowly creep in, and I have to keep moving at least a little to fight it off. By 100 minutes, 39F top to bottom, I'm ready to get out but not cold enough that it's a safety issue. Personally, I think you're a bit underdressed, not suffering from any lack of skill. Just make sure you're not underweighted and being forced to run squeezed at the end of the dive.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

@Ryan Neely "That being said, I do find that post chemotherapy and radiation treatment for Hodgkins lymphoma I have been much colder on a regular basis. During the BC (before cancer) years, I was one of those hot bodies who would regularly feel overheated sitting around a winter day in shorts and a t-shirt".

I was on a low dose of chemotherapy for about a year quite a few years ago. It seemed like I was always the coldest in the room for quite a while after that. I don't know how long it took to shake that, but there's something to it.

My wife would make fun of me as I would have to run a hot shower over my legs and hurry up dry off and jump into bed. It was like they couldn't warm themselves.

Sorry, no scientific knowledge to back that up.. but it's gone now and I'm back to being a sweaty hot blooded guy, lol.

Srysuits are amazing as you can change layers. The type of dives I do greatly effect how I feel. On oyster dives in 35° water I have gone 2 hours as I'm working. If I'm dead still in the same water on pretty damn cold by the 35 min mark.

 

[rfwoodvt]

Dove in one of our mountain lakes over Labor Day weekend. Used my normal set up, full insulation, 10mm hood and dry-gloves and found myself extremely comfortable in the water column above thermocline. Temp variation ran from 68*f - 55*f. The new neck seal (finally) worked as hoped and had very few cold spots on the suit (mostly due to squeeze)

Dropped below the thermocline for about 10 minutes (48*f) and the cold spots on my chest/core rapidly came back despite more air in the suit. Seems associated mostly with where my BC and straps meet my body

As someone mentioned above a core vest will probably go a long way to addressing this particular issue. I have several options on hand including a Thinsulate hunting vest, 3mm neoprene vest and a couple of knit sweaters. I'm also not opposed to picking up an X-core vest or something similar but not if I can make good use of what I already have on hand.

Right now I am leaning towards the 3mm neoprene as it seems less compressible in general and even though it doesn't breathe if worn over wicking a base layer I think that can be a non-issue.

Before I use a tank of air to try it out I'd like to hear your thoughts.