Question Do I Need a Better Technique or Warmer Undergarments

[Ryan Neely]

Okay. I'm just starting out Drysuit Diving. We (my buddy-wife and I) bought our Santi E.Lite+ suits at the end of 2020 when we thought Covid was going to taper off . . . and then we had a resurgence, which pushed our training (with the fabulous Guy Shockey) to December of last year. During our Drysuit Primer, we dove in 46°F water off the coast of Vancouver Island and, while it didn't feel like we were sitting by an open fire, I wasn't entirely cold, either. In other words, it was "doable"; not comfortable, but not uncomfortable either.

Now that the ice has melted on the local lakes here in northern Minnesota, we are very excited to get back in the water to practice and refine our skills. We were fortunate enough to go diving on Wednesday. This was our first dive since our Primer course, and I was freezing.

For the details, I wear Brynje Merino wool Mesh base layers under 200g Smart Wool Merino wool standard base layer under Fourth Element Arctic two-piece (top and bottom). I also wear Merino wool socks as a base layer under Fourth Element Arctic Socks and Smart Wool Cozy Gloves under my dry gloves. The water temperature was 42°F at a depth of 35 feet in a flooded iron mine.

What I noticed was that my legs and feet were very comfortable but my torso, arms, and legs were waiting for Han Solo to come stuff me into the belly of a dead Tauntaun.

My first thought was that I wasn't in proper trim and that my lower half was rising above my head, but when asked my buddy-wife confirmed that I was in perfect trim. I'm wondering if there is some technique I should be attempting to employ to keep my upper half warmer or if I should look at a second set of undergarments (such as the Halo 3D or the BZ400) for spring and fall diving and return to the Arctics for summer.

I'd love to hear your thoughts!

 

[Brett Hatch]

Congrats on your new(ish) suits, and finally getting a chance to dive in them. 42F is pretty friggin' cold, coldest I've done is 47! I don't own 4E undies, but the Arctic is listed for 50F-60F on their website. They have a product called Expedition for 42F-57F, maybe that would be a better fit.

Other gear things to look for:
- Does your drysuit fit? It should fit really well, like a tailored suit. Too tight will restrict blood flow, which makes you cold and causes other problems. Too loose will create air pockets, which will screw up your trim and make you have too much or too little air inside (too little air = cold). If it doesn't fit well, you can probably have the manufacturer alter it for you for some $400 or so.
- Do you have a good, thick hood? Most of our blood goes directly to our heads, and in a drysuit w/ drygloves, your head is the only wet part of your body. If you have a thin hood, maybe a 10mm or 12mm would be better. And that thing better fit -- if you can't find a hood that is shaped like your noggin, have one made custom, they're not very expensive.
- Is your neck warm? Many drysuits have a really thin latex/silicone seal on the neck that doesn't offer any insulation. If you have one like this, consider a "warm neck", which is basically a little neoprene scarf that wraps around the neck seal.

As for "Do I Need a Better Technique?", it sounds like insufficient gear is more likely. One possible skills issue would be if your suit didn't have enough air in it to loft the undersuit properly. Which, if that was the case, besides being cold, you'd be pretty uncomfortable and have lines all over your body from being shrink-wrapped for an hour.

Another possible "soft skill" would be not to get yourself too cold before you enter the water. You don't want your body to have lost a lot of heat before you even get in. And conversely, if you are sweating into your undersuit before you reach the water, your undies will be all wet and won't insulate well. So keep comfy before you splash, and if you've been standing around in the wind, or the snow, or getting rained on for half an hour while you set things up, maybe you should consider warming up in the car for awhile. You also want to be well-fed, with some carbs in your belly.

Hope this helps.

 

[grantctobin]

Ice Diving and Great Lake Undergarment ideas

 

[Mr. Dooley]

For me, the Fourth Element Arctics probably wouldn't be up to that task, either. I own them and find sub-50 degree dives doable but I get cold pretty quick. Low 40's in the Arctics and yeah, it becomes an endurance challenge in a hurry.

I upgraded to the Aqualung Thermal Fusion and I can say there's a noticeable difference. I've dived high 30's wearing a merino wool base layer, then a fleece layer, then the Thermal Fusion. Felt similar to diving the mid 50's in the Arctics + one base layer - meaning it's still a chilly experience overall, but definitely doable. Cold wasn't the primary factor of the dive. Definitely needed to add some weight, which to me was almost proof that it was working - the garment holds more air, which is what's keeping you warm.

For 60's and above I'll dive the Arctics, for 50's and lower I prefer the Fusion. I was diving comfortably in 57 degree water the other day, no base layer necessary.

 

[Marie13]

I think the Arctics aren’t quite up to the job. I wear a DUI Duotherm 300 one piece plus a Fourth Element X-Core vest. The vest goes over my base layer. That’s for low 40s. I need to pull out my merino wool for an additional layer over my polypro base layer. Wool directly on my skin makes me some what itchy. I do have a heated vest I’ll wear on low but I’m trying diving without it to see how I do.

If you like Fourth Element, you might want to check out the Halo.

 

[MrVegas]

. . . . plus a Fourth Element X-Core vest . . .

This helped me too. Cabelas medium weight base layers, the x-core vest, 4th element Arctic one piece. Had that down to 39F with wet gloves (XS Scuba Dry Fives) and a good hood. I was a little cold, I guess, but not dying to get out of the water. Have dry gloves now. Nice for the dive, but a pain to get on and off. Everyone's different on cold, though.

 

[grantctobin]

These threads are hard to read without acknowledging dive duration and body composition. For the same weight, a 10%BF person is going to have wildly different thermal needs than someone with 30%BF. Similarly, the standard of “I’m too cold to finish this dive as intended and need to abort” is not a possibility with a soft or hard overhead AND your body offgasses poorly when chilled.

 

[lermontov]

general movement is good to keep warm - if im doing a penetration dive and im going slowly to try and reduce silting, reeling tieng off etc i get colder, so its nice to have a warm undergarment- I use a BZ400 for anything around 60f (without the heating) usually do 90 min dives and stay toasty warm anything colder than that id use the heater especially at deco - the heater and battery adds another level of fiddle factor but if zi was diving in cold water like you all the time -its worth it

 

[Cio]

You didn't mention hood and glove thickness. Make sure your head is warm.

My $0.02
Lofty down is my preference, I find it pushes out on the suit and makes it easier to keep an even loft throughout the suit with minimal weight/bulk. It also compresses easily when I need to cool off. I use weezel extreme + one piece jumpsuit base layer (skiing one)+ thermulation vest, this works fine in 42F I only change the hood from 3mm to 7 mm for colder and get rid of the one piece for warmer water.

Use a heater. I have thermulation and it works well. It's like having an adjustable undergarment. Research it's use for safety (basically, use it later in the dive) At least one person got bent trying to be ultra comfy and killing the batteries too soon.

I just did 75 min in 48F, only used the heater for the last 30 min, on low and turned it off an back on a few times.

 

[Esprise Me]

Those temps are outside my experience level, but I just wanted to throw something out there, since you mentioned technique. You say you were OK in 46 degree water while learning how to dive your drysuit, and now in 42 degree water you're cold. If technique is a factor (and it may not be), it's more likely that your improved technique is increasing your need for thermal protection. New divers tend to move more than they need to until they get their buoyancy sorted, and the same is true to some extent of new drysuit divers. Once you settle in, you get cold.