Do I chunk my 2006 Zeagle Ranger LTD for a 2006 SeaQuest Black Diamond?

[Rogue_Diver]

I had about 80 dives on my 2005 Black Diamond before I sold it a few weeks ago. My experience was that the rear dumps did not work that well for anything other than a head first desent. Now, with that said, you must pull the valve string up because pulling the string down (the easiest almost natural direction to pull it) pulls the valve below the air in the bladder. This might be something you can do on your current BC. I never used the chest mounted shoulder dump. I only used the inflator dump and it required re-positioning in the water to get the air out. I never used the pull dump as it broke and I never bothered to fix it.

The bladder never rode up over my shoulders, and it was a comfortable BC, but as you suspected, its bulky. The straps are not exactly straps that go over the shoulder, they are wide areas of fabric. It spreads the weight out well and keeps everything in place. I dove a drysuit at home and a T shirt on vacation and it always stayed put. When figuring out my buoyancy I learned it takes 5 pounds of lead just to get the BC neutral in the water. It also weighs 15 pouns, so plan on a heavy rig. The pockets are nice, but here in SO.CAL. we wear gloves, which makes it almost impossible to get into them. I considered installing grommets and pulls, but never got around to it.

 

[terrasmak]

I don't really suspect that a BP/Wing is any ware near on my horizons. I would like to do some technical diving in the future but that is not now and will not likely make up the bulk of my diving.

I know that most makers of BP/Wing systems are now making Recreational marketed versions of their products and that some divers feel this is simpler gear for diving. Having never used any form of a BP/Wing system I certainly can not deny this. The one thing I can say is that from what I have seen these systems are not as quick and easy to adjust as the typical BC. Let's face it the typical BC is designed more like a back pack. With easy to disconnect everything, quickly adjustable straps every ware. and often a convent stretchy cummerbund so it can be comfy. But it is also easy, you can trade BC's very conveniently in the water. I can dive one day deep wearing four layers of thermal protection and the next day at 30 feet with one 7mm suit and all I have to do is pull on the shoulder straps a little further when I put it on. Please don't get me wrong, this is not a slam against BP/Wing divers. I can see many of the positive points of the BP/Wing for recreational and technical diving and I respect any diver that has found any equipment that allows them to enjoy their diving more, for any reason, but, and perhaps this is influenced by the fact that I have never used one, it just doesn't seem to offer me benefits for my typical diving down at the quarry, or going to help someone get something out of the lake.



This is a very simple and wise point.

Look into the BP/w from DSS with the comfort or deluxe harness , very easy to adjust , just like your covited BCD . Next with a Hog harness once the shoulders straps are set its rare to adjust them again even when changing suits around . If you feel you are going to venture into tech someday , you may as well get started on the right equipment now. There really isnt much different between a BCD and BP/w other than less extra unneeded junk , better trim , more stable and the list goes on and on , Oh ya did i mention cheaper. BPW is a win win situation ,

 

[PerroneFord]

No offense, but sounds like trying to buy a solution to a techique issue. I'll second Jim Balwin's statements. I've never used a pull dump in my life. In fact, I got into a bad scenario exiting a cave and could have really used a pull-dump. And until I got home that evening, forgot that the wing I was using actually had one (I gotta get that thing off).

I'd suggest spending some quality time with your Zeagle. If you are using the OPV on the left rear of the bladder, then if you are truly horizontal and roll right, your valve will dump air. This is an issue of physics.

Best of luck getting sorted out.

 

[ScottZeagle]

Jim Baldwin gave you some pretty sage advice, and I'm not sure I can say it any better.

There are many, many divers who use these BCs and have no problems, and then there are some who can't seem to get it ironed out. If you fall in the latter category, I wouldn't blame you one bit for looking at a different set up.

Best of luck,

Scott

 

[pupdiver]

I agree with Baldwin, be judicious with using the pull dump. Use the inflator dump or the rear dumps. I think you can probably fix your issues by working on technique a bit. I dive with an older Zeagle Ranger (I think the basic design is the same as yours) and have never had an issue with excessive water getting in. But I normally use the inflator dump to descend and the rear dump to make adjustments while diving.

 

[UFScubaDiver]

Never toss a Zeagle unless you go to a wing/BP and hopefully a Qxycheq Mach V

I second that

 

[Plug]

Never throw out a zeagle, I just converted my zeagle bladder to a backplate and love it

Plug

 

[DiveMaven]

Personally, I've never used the dump valves on my Zena, preferring to use my inflator hose and breath control for buoyancy control. But what works for me may not work for you.

To me this comes down to finding the right piece of equipment for the individual. If the Ranger doesn't work for you, find something that does.

 

[S. starfish]

I'm going to echo the statement that you should maybe spend some time working out the kinks in your technique before spending more cash, especially on a seaquest.
I don't have experience with the blackdiamod but I did dive with the next model down, the balance, for quite some time and to be completely honest I hated it. It was way too messy for my tastes, the rear dump did not work at all unless I was upside down and the valves on the shoulders were positioned in a way that I had to go vertical to vent them. It is possible that I had the wrong size but I seriously doubt it. I have friends who dive the blackdiamond, it is super bulky but they seem happy with it so to each their own I guess.

 

[bperrybap]

wb5plj,

I have around 95 dives this year on a Brigade I bought last year.
I sympathize with your pull dumping issues.
I have noticed similar problems. I'm pretty sure the recent
rangers use the same corrogated hose assembly.
I have spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out why I had such
a difficult time dumping from the pull dump; it simply never
worked very well or mostly not at all.
The thing that triggered my search for why was that my
wife said her Zena dumped just fine by pulling on the hose.

Here is what I have discovered.

The corrogated hose used on the newer brigades, rangers, and nearly
all of the BCs by other manufacturers hitting market now are
all using a very similar hose.
This hose is different from the hoses used a while back in that
they don't stretch very easily.
The older hoses were a thinner rubber that was either
corrogated with concentric rings or in a spiral. The hoses
from OMS are still of this stretchier design. All the Zenas but the
very latest Zenas use the older stretchier true corrogated hose.
In side by side comparisons it will be immediately obvious
how much extra force is needed to get the new hose to stretch.

If you look closely at the new hose. It isn't what I'd call
a corrogated hose at all. It is a solid rubber hose with
tiny thin concentric rings cut into the exterior of it.
The interior/inside of the hose is smooth rubber.
This isn't like the older hoses at all which the entire hose
interior & exterior was corrogated with large groves or
a single spiralled grove to act like a spring.
The newer hoses while much more robust, will probably last
longer, and are less likely to tear or rip, simply don't have the
stretching capacity of the older hoses.

This makes pull dumping alot more difficult with the newer
hose.

Also what I have found out is that when the hose curves
over your shoulder the pull wire will follow the inner radius
of the arc of the curve. This effectively makes the wire longer which
requires additional stretch on a hose that is already difficult
to stretch.

For those that don't believe me. Take the hose/dump assembly
off your BC. Remove the inflator from the hose so that the end
of the dump cable can be seen inside the hose. Now coil the hose
up in a tight circle. You will see that the cable will now be
sticking out of the hose by 4-6 inches.

Specifically on my Brigade, the dump cable supplied
is about 3/4" longer than the hose. The means that I have
to stretch the hose 3/4" before the cable will start to open
the dump valve. This is when the hose is straight.
When the hose is curved over my shoulder that 3/4"
will increase to nearly 2 inches as the cable rides the inner
radius of the arc inside the hose.
This means that if I pull on the hose down, i.e. tward my waist
or legs I have to get nearly 2 inches of stretch to get the
valve to open, while if I pull up/out away from my shoulder
in the direction of my head, the stretch needed is only about
3/4".

Now to toss in another factor. For tall folks like me and
you, the dump valve is a bit lower on their bodies. This means
that there is less length of dump hose from the top of your shoulder
to the inflator. When you pull down on the hose (tward your legs)
the only part of the hose that can stretch is the hose from the top
of your shoulder to the end of the hose where the inflator is.
So for tall folks there is a little less hose available for stretching.
In my experience, I can't get 2" of stretch on the hose.
This means that if I pull "down" on the hose (tward my toes)
it will never dump, however if I pull "up" or "out" I can get it
to dump.

I think for most other BCs not being able to use the inflator
pull dump isn't that big of a deal because they have a right
should pull dump that can be used so they don't worry about
it. However, the Zeagles don't have a right shoulder pull dump.

So in my case, since I really wanted my pull dump to work,
what I did is toss that rigid hose originally supplied and
replace it with one of the older Zena corrogated hoses.
You will also need a new pull dump cable because the
Zena hose is shorter than the Brigade/Ranger Hose.
ScubaToys sold me the hose and cable for $20.
You could also use the hose by OMS which is the same length
as the Zena hose so you will need a shorter dump cable.

I was amazed. Now my pulldump works just fine everytime
regardless of the direction I pull and the amount of force
needed is mimimal. No comparison to how it worked with
the other hose.

I was a little surprised to see ScottZeagle kind of imply
that this dumping problem was user error.

My feeling is that this newer stiffer hose is very problematic and
if you want to use the pull dump feature on your Brigade/Ranger
(or any other BC that uses this stiffer new hose)
you need to ditch this newer more rigid hose for a true
corrogated hose.

I have also noticed that the newer Zeagle BCs have
2 rear dump valves that are now on the outward/upward facing
side of the bladder rather than the single left dump valve
in the inward/downward facing side of the bladder.

BTW, my preference on this whole shoulder/pull dump thing
would be to eliminate the corrogated hose pull dump valve
and add a right shoulder pull dump.

--- Bill