Do I chunk my 2006 Zeagle Ranger LTD for a 2006 SeaQuest Black Diamond?

[wb5plj]

Do I chunk my 2006 Zeagle Ranger LTD for a 2006 SeaQuest Black Diamond?

Ok, hoping for some constructive advice here. I have of course found a lot of opinions of which everyone has one, but that has not really been helpful to me in this issue. I am hoping some of you with more experience or more exposure to the equipment in question can help me out here.

I have a Zeagle Ranger LTD Circa 2006 and their are many things I like about it but at the same time some things that I naggingly dislike. The primary issue I have with it is the position and function of the valves on the bladder.

I find that I almost always have use the oral inflator on the end of the power inflator to remove any air from the bladder. When floating on the surface (a lot of air in the bladder) if I pull on the power inflator to open the shoulder valve where the power inflator attaches this almost always let's water into the bladder. This also lets the air out slower than using the oral inflator. I also find that when underwater pulling on the power inflator let's even more water into the bladder. This is true when horizontal and pointing up slightly to move the air up in the bladder or when vertical. so again I tend to use the oral inflator.

I should also point out that I am quite tall and have the medium size unit but large size shoulder straps, this makes the harness fit me very well. The result of this is the top of the bladder is definitely on my back and not rolling over my shoulders at all. I am not sure if this is how the Ranger fit's everyone or not.

For the most part the two valves on the bottom of the bladder are useless to me. When horizontal underwater and either swimming along or hanging in one spot checking something out the valves are on the bottom of the bladder and pulling them lets water in and no air out. Trying to squish back the corners of the bladder to get the valves in a better position only seams to push the air forward (and down when in a slightly heads down position) in the bladder and pulling the valves just let's water in. It seams to me they should be on the back side of the bladder to allow for the air to easily be removed from or adjusted. This is particularly annoying while hanging in one spot to check out some fishes or what not. I prefer to have my heals above my head a bit. This allows me to control my position and move in any direction with very little or no concern about mucking up the bottom or having to touch and go with my hands. Of the local divers I dive with no one else seams to be comfortable with this method but it works for me so I go with it. In either case this is an ideal position to have valves on the bottom of the bladder but being on the front side they are not very functional for this. I can role over and use them a bit but then I am not looking at any point of reference and I am always concerned about hitting the bottom. Also this maneuver can have an undesirable result, if I end up dropping to a more horizontal position while rolling over this can result in working all of the air into one side of the bladder once I again take my slightly heads down position. All of this means that I must shift to a slightly heads up position then use the oral inflator, as I like to be close to what I am looking at this usually means I must back way off, swivel heads up, adjust buoyancy, flip back to a comfortable heals up position, and come back into the position I started at. All very annoying and not a quick and efficient procedure. Basically impossible when working with my hands, tools, attaching a lift bag, or repairing something.

I have used some Seaquest jacket BC's before. I like the way the power inflator works on these and have never gotten an unacceptable amount of water in the BC from using the pull dump feature of the power inflator. So I started looking in to the Black Diamond, (I definitely like back inflation) It seams to have all that I want in the bladder. two lower dump valves on the back side of the bladder, The Seaquest power inflator, and also a dump valve on the right shoulder. On the jacket style Seaquest models I have used this is a very quick valve and also doesn't seam to let an unacceptable amount of water in the bladder. One of my concerns is that on the Seaquest models I have used (all jacket style) the bladder comes forward up over the shoulders much farther than say my Ranger which doesn't come forward onto the tops of the shoulders at all. I think this is one of the reasons the dump valves and power inflator pull dump work better when leaving the surface. So if anyone does have a modern Black Diamond and can tell me if the bladder comes up over the shoulders in any way that would be helpful.

My other questions would be about all the comments I hear about the Black Diamond being super bulky, heavy, unwieldily etc. I have also heard that the pockets are nearly useless (not that the pockets on the Ranger are that big) But I am not sure that I have heard from anyone having a modern Black Diamond. Unfortunately my LDS does not stock a Black Diamond. As a mater a fact doesn't stock any back inflation BC's (not including BP/W) as almost no local divers use them. And their is not a lot of local divers compared to some areas, I live in the middle of Missouri. So I can't just go down and play with one and evaluate it for my self. I believe that the 2006 Black Diamond has the same ditch-able weight system and pockets (well, side pockets) as the SeaQuest Pro XLT (which I have seen and used a couple of times) if this is the case I expect the pockets would be sufficient when you discount the Pro XLT's bladder wrapping around the sides and squishing the pockets flat.

This leads me to another comment. I have heard some people comment on the balance form Seaquest and this does look like a good BC to me. But as much as warm waters and beautiful reef's call to me I must face the fact that most of my diving takes place here, and that's ok. But what that means is that I where at least 7mm wet suit and usually a 6mm hooded vest over that. Possibly a skin suit under it all. Sometimes another shorty over all of that. Warmth is my friend. All of the neoprene means that I have a lot of buoyancy to begin with. Need a lot of weight to get over the buoyancy and once I start going down the suits crush and the buoyancy goes away and I need a fairly large bladder to counteract all of the weight. The balance just doesn't seam to have the weight carrying capacity or the bladder capacity to make me comfortable here, particularly not when trying to pick up an anchor or other heavy thing found on the bottom. But I can defiantly see the attraction to warm water divers.

Of course I understand that it is all but impossible to keep all the water out of the BC and I don't think that I have unrealistic expectations about the amount of water getting in that is a problem or not. But I can't help but feel that the Zeagle get's to much water in for me to be comfortable and remain unanoyed. In addition to this I feel that I have to perform to many strange maneuvers to let out air when underwater for adjusting neutral. If you have some comments or observations on these issues or things I have not thought of, please post them.

I don't mind spending the money on the Black Diamond if it does improve the quality of my diving experience. At the same time I don't have hundreds of extra dollars laying around (wouldn't that be nice) to try stuff and discard it. I also know if I ask my LDS to get one in and I don't like it he has virtually no chance of selling it to someone else so he will have to eat the cost of getting it in and sending it back. etc...

Thanks, and waiting hopefully for many morsels of wisdom.

 

[booth22]

How about a BP/W?

 

[Ron Brandt]

Never toss a Zeagle unless you go to a wing/BP and hopefully a Qxycheq Mach V

Also... the rear dump valves position on your blader is standard...personally I have never had need to dump from the rear and thank god in one instance ,where my Zeagle valves had nearly unscrewed themselves complely..

Also,I have seen low pressure inflator hoses comming disconnected by puling on the hose to dump air. Allways use the use the button on top of the power inflator to dump air.
Ron

 

[scubadobadoo]

Yeah, what they said. Apples for oranges if you change. You should look into a BP/W. Good luck.

 

[Deleted member 546628]

Give Zeagle a call. The folks there are more than willing to help. Alternatively, PM Scott Zeagle (the Zeagle rep here on the board).

Sounds like your bladder may need to be modified for the perfect fit. Given my experience, Zeagle will likely do it at n/c. Real nice folks.

 

[Jim Baldwin]

Do I chunk my 2006 Zeagle Ranger LTD for a 2006 SeaQuest Black Diamond?

Ok, hoping for some constructive advice here. I have of course found a lot of opinions of which everyone has one, but that has not really been helpful to me in this issue. I am hoping some of you with more experience or more exposure to the equipment in question can help me out here.

I have a Zeagle Ranger LTD Circa 2006 and their are many things I like about it but at the same time some things that I naggingly dislike. The primary issue I have with it is the position and function of the valves on the bladder.

I find that I almost always have use the oral inflator on the end of the power inflator to remove any air from the bladder. When floating on the surface (a lot of air in the bladder) if I pull on the power inflator to open the shoulder valve where the power inflator attaches this almost always let's water into the bladder. This also lets the air out slower than using the oral inflator. I also find that when underwater pulling on the power inflator let's even more water into the bladder. This is true when horizontal and pointing up slightly to move the air up in the bladder or when vertical. so again I tend to use the oral inflator.

I should also point out that I am quite tall and have the medium size unit but large size shoulder straps, this makes the harness fit me very well. The result of this is the top of the bladder is definitely on my back and not rolling over my shoulders at all. I am not sure if this is how the Ranger fit's everyone or not.

For the most part the two valves on the bottom of the bladder are useless to me. When horizontal underwater and either swimming along or hanging in one spot checking something out the valves are on the bottom of the bladder and pulling them lets water in and no air out. Trying to squish back the corners of the bladder to get the valves in a better position only seams to push the air forward (and down when in a slightly heads down position) in the bladder and pulling the valves just let's water in. It seams to me they should be on the back side of the bladder to allow for the air to easily be removed from or adjusted. This is particularly annoying while hanging in one spot to check out some fishes or what not. I prefer to have my heals above my head a bit. This allows me to control my position and move in any direction with very little or no concern about mucking up the bottom or having to touch and go with my hands. Of the local divers I dive with no one else seams to be comfortable with this method but it works for me so I go with it. In either case this is an ideal position to have valves on the bottom of the bladder but being on the front side they are not very functional for this. I can role over and use them a bit but then I am not looking at any point of reference and I am always concerned about hitting the bottom. Also this maneuver can have an undesirable result, if I end up dropping to a more horizontal position while rolling over this can result in working all of the air into one side of the bladder once I again take my slightly heads down position. All of this means that I must shift to a slightly heads up position then use the oral inflator, as I like to be close to what I am looking at this usually means I must back way off, swivel heads up, adjust buoyancy, flip back to a comfortable heals up position, and come back into the position I started at. All very annoying and not a quick and efficient procedure. Basically impossible when working with my hands, tools, attaching a lift bag, or repairing something.

I have used some Seaquest jacket BC's before. I like the way the power inflator works on these and have never gotten an unacceptable amount of water in the BC from using the pull dump feature of the power inflator. So I started looking in to the Black Diamond, (I definitely like back inflation) It seams to have all that I want in the bladder. two lower dump valves on the back side of the bladder, The Seaquest power inflator, and also a dump valve on the right shoulder. On the jacket style Seaquest models I have used this is a very quick valve and also doesn't seam to let an unacceptable amount of water in the bladder. One of my concerns is that on the Seaquest models I have used (all jacket style) the bladder comes forward up over the shoulders much farther than say my Ranger which doesn't come forward onto the tops of the shoulders at all. I think this is one of the reasons the dump valves and power inflator pull dump work better when leaving the surface. So if anyone does have a modern Black Diamond and can tell me if the bladder comes up over the shoulders in any way that would be helpful.

My other questions would be about all the comments I hear about the Black Diamond being super bulky, heavy, unwieldily etc. I have also heard that the pockets are nearly useless (not that the pockets on the Ranger are that big) But I am not sure that I have heard from anyone having a modern Black Diamond. Unfortunately my LDS does not stock a Black Diamond. As a mater a fact doesn't stock any back inflation BC's (not including BP/W) as almost no local divers use them. And their is not a lot of local divers compared to some areas, I live in the middle of Missouri. So I can't just go down and play with one and evaluate it for my self. I believe that the 2006 Black Diamond has the same ditch-able weight system and pockets (well, side pockets) as the SeaQuest Pro XLT (which I have seen and used a couple of times) if this is the case I expect the pockets would be sufficient when you discount the Pro XLT's bladder wrapping around the sides and squishing the pockets flat.

This leads me to another comment. I have heard some people comment on the balance form Seaquest and this does look like a good BC to me. But as much as warm waters and beautiful reef's call to me I must face the fact that most of my diving takes place here, and that's ok. But what that means is that I where at least 7mm wet suit and usually a 6mm hooded vest over that. Possibly a skin suit under it all. Sometimes another shorty over all of that. Warmth is my friend. All of the neoprene means that I have a lot of buoyancy to begin with. Need a lot of weight to get over the buoyancy and once I start going down the suits crush and the buoyancy goes away and I need a fairly large bladder to counteract all of the weight. The balance just doesn't seam to have the weight carrying capacity or the bladder capacity to make me comfortable here, particularly not when trying to pick up an anchor or other heavy thing found on the bottom. But I can defiantly see the attraction to warm water divers.

Of course I understand that it is all but impossible to keep all the water out of the BC and I don't think that I have unrealistic expectations about the amount of water getting in that is a problem or not. But I can't help but feel that the Zeagle get's to much water in for me to be comfortable and remain unanoyed. In addition to this I feel that I have to perform to many strange maneuvers to let out air when underwater for adjusting neutral. If you have some comments or observations on these issues or things I have not thought of, please post them.

I don't mind spending the money on the Black Diamond if it does improve the quality of my diving experience. At the same time I don't have hundreds of extra dollars laying around (wouldn't that be nice) to try stuff and discard it. I also know if I ask my LDS to get one in and I don't like it he has virtually no chance of selling it to someone else so he will have to eat the cost of getting it in and sending it back. etc...

Thanks, and waiting hopefully for many morsels of wisdom.

I have three BP/W setups as well as a Black Diamond that I have had for several years.

Before spending more money I would consider changing your techniques and see if this will solve your problem. Here are my recommendations.

I know during your open water certification that you learned to use the pull dump on your BCD. The pull dump is designed to dump air quickly. It is not designed for dumping small amounts of air to adjust your position in the water. For it to work properly you really need to be vertical in the water. I have seen several pull dump hoses actually pull off the BCD because people either pulled them too hard or they wore out from the repeated stress.

Use your deflator button. Practice getting horizitional in the water and simply hold your hose up and if necessary rotate your left shoulder up slightly. This will cause all the air run out.

As far as rear dumps are concerned. They are used when you are in a head down/butt high position such as descending in a cave, wreck, swimthrough and you need to dump a little air. Again simply roll slightly or just pull the dump. Either way the air will exit.

If you decide to eventually go to a BP/Wing you will find that most wings do not even have the pull dump option. On one of my Dive Rite wings that had one I simply removed it and installed an elbow. My Black Diamond came standard with a pull dump and I never use it.

These techniques won't cost you the first dollar just a little practice. If they don't work for you then you still have the option to go to another rig.

 

[divad]

Try a simple black rubber plug, or a hard rubber stopper.

 

[wb5plj]

Hi Jim, thanks for the comments.

I know during your open water certification that you learned to use the pull dump on your BCD. The pull dump is designed to dump air quickly. It is not designed for dumping small amounts of air to adjust your position in the water. For it to work properly you really need to be vertical in the water. I have seen several pull dump hoses actually pull off the BCD because people either pulled them too hard or they wore out from the repeated stress.

Use your deflator button. Practice getting horizitional in the water and simply hold your hose up and if necessary rotate your left shoulder up slightly. This will cause all the air run out.

It doesn't surprise me that you have seen damaged pull dump systems. I often assist with Open Water classes and some of those students seem to think that the harder you pull the more comes out. Shame really. I do like the pull dump systems. They can be very handy especially when very deep and working with thick gloves on. I have used the Tusa (cubic 3d model or something like that) and SeaQuest (several models but all jacket type) brand BC's as well as my Zeagle and with both other pull dump system they worked very well once under the water, I agree with you that they let more air out than the oral inflator and as such you 'must' make your adjustments quickly with very short tugs. the other side of this same point is that you 'can' make your adjustments very quickly with very short tugs. Again after about sixty dives so far with the Ranger it appears that this system let's in more water than the others. I certainly won't rule out that I am doing something 'weird' with the ranger than I have done with the other BC's that I have used, borrowed. but if that is the case I am at a loss to recognize what that is.

I understand pull dump valves are only going to function when their is air behind them. In other words you must be fairly vertical. They do release air (of the ones that I have used) at a higher rate than the oral inflator. but this is my point. Their are times when I want to dump air faster. One of those times is in descending from the surface but again I find that to much water enters the bladder for me to be comfortable with. Certainly more than some of the other models I have talked about such as the SeaQuest style power inflator system.

The speed of dumping air from the bladder is another reason why the Black Diamond seems to be a desirable BC. the addition of the big dump valve on the right shoulder of the BC strikes me as very desirable option. If it functions similarly to the ones on the SeaQuest Pro XLT or Pro Unlimited this is a very fast valve, much faster than the pull dump and consequently much faster than the oral inflator. But again I am not sure how the shape of the bladder between the Black Diamond verses the jacket type SeaQuest BC's is going to affect this function.

As far as rear dumps are concerned. They are used when you are in a head down/butt high position such as descending in a cave, wreck, swimthrough and you need to dump a little air. Again simply roll slightly or just pull the dump. Either way the air will exit.

This is in fact the exact circumstances I would like to use the rear dump valves in. If I am not swimming along a wall horizontally or for that mater any time I am not traveling "at speed" as it where. I am almost always in a head down but up position. This is just comfortable to me. I find that it is stable and that I can be very maneuverable like this. whether I am looking at some rock outcropping, or playing around a wreck site. or doing some form of recovery dive. A lot of the people I dive with do not like the feeling of hanging for extended periods of time with their heads this far down but to me it is comfortable. I confess that I am weird. To give you an idea I am sure I am typically any ware from 22.5 degrees to 40 degrees head down feet up. In this position specifically is where I think the lower dump valves being on the back of the bladder (such as in the Black Diamond) as opposed to the front of the bladder (such as on the Ranger) would be of use. this way I could easily make minor adjustments to buoyancy while remaining in the same position. With the valves on the Ranger being on the bottom this provides me little benefit.

If you decide to eventually go to a BP/Wing you will find that most wings do not even have the pull dump option. On one of my Dive Rite wings that had one I simply removed it and installed an elbow. My Black Diamond came standard with a pull dump and I never use it.

I don't really suspect that a BP/Wing is any ware near on my horizons. I would like to do some technical diving in the future but that is not now and will not likely make up the bulk of my diving.

I know that most makers of BP/Wing systems are now making Recreational marketed versions of their products and that some divers feel this is simpler gear for diving. Having never used any form of a BP/Wing system I certainly can not deny this. The one thing I can say is that from what I have seen these systems are not as quick and easy to adjust as the typical BC. Let's face it the typical BC is designed more like a back pack. With easy to disconnect everything, quickly adjustable straps every ware. and often a convent stretchy cummerbund so it can be comfy. But it is also easy, you can trade BC's very conveniently in the water. I can dive one day deep wearing four layers of thermal protection and the next day at 30 feet with one 7mm suit and all I have to do is pull on the shoulder straps a little further when I put it on. Please don't get me wrong, this is not a slam against BP/Wing divers. I can see many of the positive points of the BP/Wing for recreational and technical diving and I respect any diver that has found any equipment that allows them to enjoy their diving more, for any reason, but, and perhaps this is influenced by the fact that I have never used one, it just doesn't seem to offer me benefits for my typical diving down at the quarry, or going to help someone get something out of the lake.

These techniques won't cost you the first dollar just a little practice. If they don't work for you then you still have the option to go to another rig.

This is a very simple and wise point.

 

[wb5plj]

Give Zeagle a call. The folks there are more than willing to help. Alternatively, PM Scott Zeagle (the Zeagle rep here on the board).

Sounds like your bladder may need to be modified for the perfect fit. Given my experience, Zeagle will likely do it at n/c. Real nice folks.

I will make sure to contact them on this issue again.

I would also like to point out that I am not slamming the Zeagle Ranger line. As I said their are many things i really like about it. But since they where not part of the topic this time i didn't mention these good points.

I have had to contact them on two occasions before. The first being that when I got my BC it did not come with a handle. no problem they said. they threw one in an envelope and that was that. They also happily swapped my shoulder section (it came as the new type with the shoulder straps stitched to the shoulder strap pads every inch or so. and the power inflator holding strap just passed through between the two as opposed to stitched to the shoulder strap pad.) for the old style ones. not only where they very happy to help me out but they understood what I was describing immediately showing they new their product line very well.

 

[rjsimp]

Do I chunk my 2006 Zeagle Ranger LTD for a 2006 SeaQuest Black Diamond?

In a word.. "YES"!

Take a look at this thread on this issue and I have gotten so frustrated I did buy a Seaquest. Not the model you are looking at, but none-the-less a MUCH better BC for me. As soon as I bought it, I tried it out and Voila! It works! 1000% better.