DM's/ instructors on vacation.

[Alex777]

Courts can only work on the competing "facts" that opposing consul present. In this case the failure was not on the part of the court but on the part of the lawyer.

Exactly.

If, for example, the judge happens to be an experienced diver and KNOWS what the agencies teach about buddy checks, he is NOT ALLOWED to apply his own knowledge unless one lawyer or the other places that very evidence on the record through the testimony of an expert witness. This is called the doctrine of "judicial notice". To preserve the transparency of the court proceedings, a judge can only take judicial notice of (i.e., apply his own knowledge about) facts which are "notorious", i.e., extermely widely known. Nothing about diving is that widely known.

EDIT: Sorry about the thread drift. I will refrain in future.

 

[Alex777]

<>...

 

[joker31]

Wow this thread has gone in many directions... Heres my take on it.

1) The original question was about hiding your advanced certs (rescue, DM, inst, etc.). To this I see pros and cons both ways. I truly believe that if something bad happens a good lawyer will research and find out everyones certification level (reguardless of what card you showed the diver operator), job, backgound, etc.

2) The next question was what legal obligation you have to render aid. A lot of people posting in this thread seem to mix up legal vs moral/ethical. I believe we are our brothers keeper so to speak. We all love this sport and no one wants to see anyone get hurt on a dive trip. I think everyone would bend over backward to help a diver in need (thats a good thing). However, the question still remains legally what do I have to do if another diver (not my buddy) has a problem. Unless there is a 'duty to act' there is no LEGAL obligation. Especially if there is serious risk to your own safety. Again as I said in an earlier post I am a firefighter/paramedic for my 'real' job. I promise in class after class after class we go over legal obligation to render aid. Plain and simple if you are not 'working' in a capacity of rescue diver, DM, inst, firefighter, paramedic, etc. NO DUTY TO ACT EXISTS!!! (non buddy problems). For me as a paramedic I legaly CAN NOT act as a paramedic unless I am at work. I know it sounds Bassackwards, but thats the way the laws of emergency responce works. As for an instructor there is a 'contract between the student and instructor', but for another diver that is not a buddy or student.... I just don't see how myself or any of you can be held responsible. What if you are an instuctor on vacation and everyone else on the boat just got certified the week before? Do you now have the check everyones gear? go over their dive plan? check their dive tables? check their PSI underwater? Where does it end?

3. The biggest problem with the courts is most the people that will decide guilt or innocents are not divers. I saw in an online article that only 10% of the population dives. There is a lot ignorance about our sport. Most people think that a certified diver with 15 dives is just as skilled and knowledgeable as a DM or inst with 1500+ dives. We know that this just isn't true.

4. The whole buddy issue?!?!? Not sure about that one.... Have to get back to you....

 

[Walter]

All, Rassmussen is pretty standard law and if you really stop to think about the nature of buddy teams (what I've taken to call "buddiness") it makes sense (at least to me).

Yes, but you are an attorney and most of the rest of us aren't. It does not make sense to me (although I was previously aware of the liability issues). As for the case in question, it was really screwed up, there was no emergency until she became entangled. A disconnected LPI is not an emergency.

Perhaps the "W" in the BWRAF pre-dive check mnemonic should stand for "waiver."

I'm glad no one ever tried to tell me that was a mnemonic. It's gibberish.

Isn't the BCD supposed to be at least partially inflated when doing an entry to provide positive buoyancy?

Why? I enter the water with a deflated BC. If I'm not ready to dive, I stay on the boat.

Unless you are overweighted, you can easily stay on the surface. This is especially true since the only reason you are entering the water is to drop underwater. You may need to stay afloat for 30 seconds to get together with your buddy. If your buddy has an issue and you'll be afloat longer than that, that's the time to inflate your BC. If your LPI is disconnected, orally inflate your BC. If you are (God forbid) grossly overweighted, bob to fill. Two or three breaths and you can sink if you try.

The biggest problem with the courts is most the people that will decide guilt or innocents are not divers.

Hell, if you are a diver, you'll be kicked off the jury. One side or the other won't want you there.

 

[scarefaceDM]

Remind me never to be your insta buddy. What happened to being nice to people when you meet them?

From time to time I am in the situation of diving alone on a charter and have been buddied up with brand new divers. Rather than lecture them about how great I am and how inferior they are, (which seems to be your approach) I try to be a regular respectful person, and offer some advice and assistance IF it's asked for.

And your bit about handing them an invoice, that's pretty hilarious. What do you think, that guiding dives is actually a paying, in demand skill like dentistry? Good one!

I was being sarcastic...funny ha ha...but forgot to put a smily face

I am always nice. I happen to adhere to the DIR diving practices. But it is not about that is it. If someone askes me about why I dive a backplate and wing I will answer them. If they ask why my octo is on a necklace, I will answer them. I also adapt to the new buddy...I also never put anyone down for there lack of expereince. If they ask for assistance I will gladly help them set up there way - not mine.

I set certain rules of a dive plan which are in fact the basic rules of buddy diving. Communication at all times. Going over hand signals. Staying close. Arms reach or two or three fin kicks. ...be aware of our surroundings, check your air, and for god sake stay off the bottom and keep your octos and guages on your vest and not drag them in the silt or crash a into coral.

I have had a many of an insta buddies some good and some bad and very bad. The lessons I learned made/make me a better diver today.

When I speak of the invoice...it does make me laugh...but it is taking me away from my diving pleasure. I am on vacation and not working as a DM, I am a paying customer on a charter...I paid big bucks to be there. There are people that are paid to lead a dive(what ever they get monies for these days)...I should not have to do that. Nor should I have to be the baby sitter to a newly certified diver( I will if I have to) when the Dive Op should be more organised to take them for there first dives out. Don't get me wrong, I like diving with new divers but not when I am on vacation. I paid to be there.

So forgive me I sounded harsh, elitest...or not diplomatic...but my life is at risk here aswell.

 

[Standingbear56]

Yes, but you are an attorney and most of the rest of us aren't. It does not make sense to me (although I was previously aware of the liability issues). As for the case in question, it was really screwed up, there was no emergency until she became entangled. A disconnected LPI is not an emergency.



I'm glad no one ever tried to tell me that was a mnemonic. It's gibberish.



Why? I enter the water with a deflated BC. If I'm not ready to dive, I stay on the boat.

Unless you are overweighted, you can easily stay on the surface. This is especially true since the only reason you are entering the water is to drop underwater. You may need to stay afloat for 30 seconds to get together with your buddy. If your buddy has an issue and you'll be afloat longer than that, that's the time to inflate your BC. If your LPI is disconnected, orally inflate your BC. If you are (God forbid) grossly overweighted, bob to fill. Two or three breaths and you can sink if you try.



Hell, if you are a diver, you'll be kicked off the jury. One side or the other won't want you there.

Hi Walter,
The BWRAF is from the Padi Course and stands for Begin With Review And Friend. The B is for BCD - and one of the things to look for is that it is inflated enough for + buoyancy on the surface.

 

[Riger]

The BWRAF is from the Padi Course and stands for Begin With Review And Friend.

or.. Bangkok Women Really Are Fella's
or .. Burger With Relish And Fries

 

[CompuDude]

or.. Bangkok Women Really Are Fella's
or .. Burger With Relish And Fries

I was always partial to "Big Women Real Are Fun".

 

[joker31]

I was always partial to "Big Women Real Are Fun".

WOW! Buddy checks will NEVER be the same again....:laughing:

 

[Walter]

Hi Walter,
The BWRAF is from the Padi Course and stands for Begin With Review And Friend. The B is for BCD - and one of the things to look for is that it is inflated enough for + buoyancy on the surface.

Thanks for the effort, but I'm not interested in hard to remember mnemonics. The purpose of a mnemonic is to help one remember. One that is difficult to remember defeats the purpose.

If you don't have enough buoyancy to stay on the surface with an empty BC, you're overweighted.