DMs can get in trouble?

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I have worked as a DM in Alaska and Florida (briefly). Having a dm in the water is great and definately helps "some" of the people. Some other folks don't want anyone around to "disturb" their idea of paradise.

An important thing to remember when diving with a DM in some locales (places where dive times are capped and everyone must ascend with air and no nitrogen obligation requiring stops) is that the DM would rather dive longer also. I don't know any DM's who work on their own boats. Usually the DM is the bottom rung and is treated as such. If you have a complaint about a dive, take it up with the boat captain, not the DM. DM's have very little say about operations other than safety:)
 
Catherine, I'm not going to quote your posting, but will respond.

Incident reports are "discoverable" in many jurisdictions. That means that in the event of a lawsuit, the "other side" may be entitled to see them. The premise behind the law, as it relates to what is "discoverable" is that legal disputes are best resolved when there is full disclosure of all relevant information. Some courts have talked about how modern practice has done away with the "sporting theory of litigation" in which an adversary can be "ambushed" with information. As a result, if an incident report is "relevant" and not "privileged" the other side can see it.
The law creates certain privileges to promote public policy. For example, the law considers it important that a client can be completely candid with his or her attorney. As such, confidential communications between an attorney and client are privileged and protected from disclosure. (There are a few limited exceptions.) Similarly, since the law does not like invading the bedroom, there is a privilege for confidential communications between spouses. And, because of the separation of church and state, confidential communications with a clergyman are privileged. While these privileges are nearly absolute, the law does not favor the hiding of information in a lawsuit, so the privileges, while vigorously enforced, are narrowly construed.

As to an incident report, it will be "privileged" if it is prepared for an attorney for the purpose of rendering legal services and is otherwise kept confidential. The "client" does not necessarily have to hire the lawyer, just to be communicating where there is the possibility of a retention.

There are splits among the jurisdictions what happens if an incident report is provided to an insurance company for transmission to an attorney. Some treat the insurance company as a "representative" of the attorney and hold the privilege continues. Others say it is waived.

I've had clients who started things like incident reports with salutations like: "Bruce, there has been an incident that might require your services as a lawyer. I wanted to let you know some of the details so you could decide if this is a matter that requires your legal services." The premise is that this salutation makes it clear the report was prepared for me and for the possible rendition of legal services.

In any incident, perceptions will differ among witnesses. I view a trial as being like assembling a jigsaw puzzle. Each fact has a size, shape and color. It is then just a matter of assembling the big picture from the little pieces. If I am missing pieces, the picture may not look right when I'm done. As a result, I prefer to get as much information from as many sources as I can. That does not, however, mean I want my client interviewing witnesses or the witnesses recording their observations of information. I want them to remember it, but I like to be the one that gets the information from, often by way of a simple interview. When I do the interview, the information I get is generally considered my "work product" and is not "discoverable" by others. (It is sort of like a privilege.)

I'm not sure if this helps or not.

As to the phrasing of incident reports, I generally prefer to stay away from absolutes. When one says: "He was dead," they are subject to impeachment if they are wrong. (Note the verb "to be.") The same goes for when one says: "He had no pulse." But, when one says, "He looked dead," or "I felt no pulse," they may be mistaken, but they won't be impeached by it. (I can always say: "I felt no pulse. He may have had one, but I sure couldn't feel it.")

Last but not least: One of the most important things liability insurance does for you is pay for an attorney in the event you are sued. I'm sorry, but we don't come cheep. That's just the way it is. For better or worse, market forces make it that way. (Personally, I think there are many professions that ought to be paid more than lawyers, e.g. teachers, police, firefighters, and the guys who service my regulator.) In any event, there is little worse than winning the lawsuit but having gone broke paying a lawyer. That alone is probably the best argument for having liability insurance. Premiums that seem out of line for the risk, may be high because of the legal costs.

Sorry for rambling on.
 
wedivebc:
Where does that say DMs have been sued. Furthermore they are lumping DMs with instructors who have on occasion been sued. If you know of one bonafide case of a DM being sued post it here.

I'm baffled over the line of thought divemasters don't/can't get sued. Here's a news flash: anyone can be sued for negligence. Divemasters don't have a special exemption.

Tancredi v. Dive Makai Charters: In this case the plaintiff filed suit against 1) the corporate entity, 2) the owners of that corporation, 3) the boat captain, and 4) the divemaster.

In re Adventure Bound Sports: In capacity as "guide" and "deckhand" DM was found to have been an agent of the boat and would remain a party to the action. On appeal this case was thrown out for technical reasons, so the DM got a little lucky.

Here's the deal, the question is not whether or not a DM is liable? This thread has moved past that. Rather, the question is just how liable are they?

That's still a question we are working on. I don't have much access to maritime case law so I've reached my research limits for the time being. ItsBruce, as far as I know, has an article on the way concerning this.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter who you are (boat captain, DM, dive buddy, or anyone else), if you may have contributed, through negligence, to the death of a diver you can be sued. The issue is just how successful are those suits? And I don't really know yet.

This discussion is technically limited to events that took place when no waiver had been signed or the waiver was deemed to be invalid by a court (I believe that's an important detail when talking about this).

Bruce, I'm on pins and needles waiting for a better explaination! I don't think I'm quite doing this justice.

JB
 
RockPile:
I'm baffled over the line of thought divemasters don't/can't get sued. Here's a news flash: anyone can be sued for negligence. Divemasters don't have a special exemption.
If no DM has been found negligent or has been successfully sued why do we need insurance against it. I don't have insurance against rhinoceros attack but that is not to say it isn't possible. Just not likely and certainly not enough to justify insurance.
You have yet to prove your point.
 
Even the hero can be sued.
A friend of mine from karate class was driving home and saw a woman being assaulted by a man with a shotgun. He charged the man, got controll of the gun and gave the bad guy a really good whoopin. The local news paper had him on the front page with a good sam story for saving the woman. Now as the bad guy is sitting in prison the hero gets slapped with a lawsuit for injuring the bad guy as he was trying to rape this woman. The lawsuit was thrown out but the hero still had to spend a lot of money to defend himself.
Back to diving, I bet as long as you are on the boat, be it the captain, DM, deckhand, paying diver or bubble watcher, just being there probably makes you a target for a lawsuit.
 
I'm waiting for the article to be posted. Its been submitted.

I've never actually read a DM policy, so I can't say precisely what it does. However, I've studied many other insurance policies. The following is based on those. It is not, however, legal advice as the law varies from place to place. (Every disclaimer of every sort goes here.)

Liability insurance is important because it provides two kinds of protection. One is referred to as "indemnity." That is where the insurance company pays sums the policyholder becomes legally obligated to pay. The other is referred to as "defense." That is where the insurance company pays for a lawyer to defend the policyholder against a claim or lawsuit. Historically, policies included a defense because the insurance companies figured that since they would have to pay a judgment if the policyholder was found liable, the insurance company should be the one to select the lawyer to fight the claim. There were a couple of advantages to this. One was that the lawyer was a known quantity, one in which the insurance company had confidence. Another was that because of the economy of scale, the insurance company could negotiate very favorable hourly rates with the lawyers whom the hired to defend their policyholders.

While this is largely why insurance policies still say that the insurance company will defend the policyholder against claims or suits, it has taken on a life of its own. In fact, in many claims--and possibly most claims--it is more important to the policyholder that the insurance company pay for a lawyer than anything else.

At the risk of offending anyone, and keeping in mind I do not believe in being policically correct just for the sake of being politically correct, I'll say it like it is: If someone came to me and wanted to hire me to defend them in a personal injury case that was anything more than a red light/green light or slip-and-fall, I charge $300 per hour and require a $10,000 retainer just to start. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE NEED INSURANCE.

As far as who will get sued in the event of an injury, the answer is that everyone in sight will get sued. All it takes to sue is the filing fee, and in most places, its the same fee no matter how many defendants are named. Once we are at that point you can re-read the last paragraph. BTW: A prevailing defendant will generally not get his or her attorney's fees back.

If I've missed any points anyone wants to know about, let me know.
 
wedivebc:
If no DM has been found negligent or has been successfully sued why do we need insurance against it. I don't have insurance against rhinoceros attack but that is not to say it isn't possible. Just not likely and certainly not enough to justify insurance.
You have yet to prove your point.

We don't (need insurance, in New Zealand). However, the point is not whether the suit was successful. You need insurance to cover the legal fees of getting you to the point where the suit was not successful.

As as aside, if you have a family, and dealt with a rhinocerous on a regular basis, then having helath/life insurance that covered rhinocerous attack might not be such a bad idea.
 
ItsBruce,
You left out the part about if someone is worthy to sue. If they have "deep pockets" and how to determine if they have deep pockets.
 
all4scuba05:
What could happen that would be the DM's fault or the Dive op's fault?

Well...anything. If something bad happens and the client sues then the DM, the operator, the captain of the boat, the guys buddy, other people on the boat who didn't even see what happened, the guys high-school gym teacher, his mother and everyone he ever nodded at on a city bus will be sued. Lawyers don't care if it makes sense and they don't care about justice, moral ethics, whose lives they ruin or any of that. In a liability case, the amount of money to be won determines if the case is justified or not. Logic is irrelevant.

R..
 
When I was a dive boat crew/guide in the '80's I didn't worry about being sued because all I had was some ratty old dive gear, a really nice surfboard and a heap of crap car.
Go ahead and sue, what are you going to get out of me???
Not everyone has deep pockets.
 

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