DMs can get in trouble?

[MSilvia]

All I expect from a DM is a briefing and maybe taking my fins from me when I'm climbing back on the boat. If I'm on vacation, it's nice to have someone point out interesting stuff I might otherwise miss, but I don't expect them to be responsible for me in any way. On the few occasions I've been on local dives where there was a DM leading the group, I've brought my own flag so my buddy and I would be able to avoid the zero-vis zone.

Of the four vacation dives I've done following DMs, I had one who led faster than I wanted to follow, one who spent two hours bobbing off the coast of Belize with my friends and I while we wondered where the boat went, one who wanted to herd everyone back to the boat with 1500 psi left, and one who showed us a great time and took us on some beautiful drift dives at our pace. The latter was with Xtabay divers in Cozumel. The former didn't instill me with much desire to follow DMs.

 

[stu_in_fl]

so a DM working where its not required by law to guide, would be better off not diving so as not to be liable should someone die?
Other threads are making it sound like a DM will get sued if a diver dies.

most would still dive if they could (in some locales you are required to have a certain number of people on the surface depending on the number of divers in the water)

undoubtely if someone died someone will try and sue - thats why operators, instructors and working DMs carry insurance, so the legal eagles can fight it out. It would be very unlikely a law suit would be successful [so essentially the insurance is to pay for the dive lawyers to battle it out] (try and find some of the threads where some of the lawyers on the baord posted details of the wheres/whats and hows)

 

[Doc]

Stu in FL has it right... in theory.

If all divers are certified: great vis: calm seas and no current.

Irrelevant

1- Does the DM HAVE to get in the water? If so, why?

He "has" to get into the water if that is what you chartered for.

2- Every one is buddied up. Those who don't have enough confidence team up with the Dm. Dm takes his group on a 60ft reef dive.

Excuse me, "go with the DM" ? OKay, now he has one, two, four buddies... what are you proposing? No, a DM by deffinition has no specific buddy. When he has a defined partner/buddy, he is no longer a DM in the classic sense.

What could happen that would be the DM's fault or the Dive op's fault?

Anything. Everything. Fault, you must remember is the determination given after a lengthy and expensive legal battle. Disclaimers and waivers are interesting, but they do not keep one from being sued. they endeavor to define the terms of that suit, but you still have to pay a guy in a suit to show up in paradise and defend your DM

3- Are dive ops supposed to babysit certified divers during dives that they are certified for?



Are they supposed to babysit certified divers? No, and the divers should be so advised before the dive. Do they do it anyway? Sure, there is a lot of heroism. If there were no DM's boy they'd have a field day at Accidents and incidents forum.

and therefore be held liable should something go wrong?

Only under very specific types of negligence or breaches of duty.

 

[boulderjohn]

I know that some dive operations want the DM's in the water to keep track of everyone. Not necessarily from a safety standpoint, but from a scheduling standpoint. The operator wants to make money; therefore, they are following a schedule. If the DM can keep the group together and surface together, there is more time for the operator.

I ran into that on a dive in Grand Cayman. The DM announced that it was a led dive (no choice) for 35 minutes, and, by golly, that's what it was. I had about a half tank of air left when required to get out of the water.

 

[boulderjohn]

Frankly, in most cases, I don't believe it is a DM decision one way or the other. Your employer will tell you how it is, and since you are the employee, that's what you will do.

As others have said, people do sign waivers, and you have insurance. Injured divers would have to show that you failed to follow minimal standards of conduct, which would not be easy.

 

[all4scuba05]

don't get me wrong...I'm just using some scenario to paint a picture because from what I've been reading, sounds like being a DM is a PITA. I'll lead the dive for whoever wants to follow but it doesn't mean I'm your dive buddy. Use you compass because if you tell me that you're low on air, then i'll tell you to take your buddy and head back to the boat. I wouldn't want to end a dive for a group because of one diver.
On the other hand, if prior to the dive, everyone is paired up and want to go off on their own, I'll let them as long as as its a safe enough place or time to do so.
But then again, like someone said, some dive ops want me to keep them with me in a group and get them back to the boat in a timely manner.
So take it easy there RoatanMan.

 

[MSilvia]

...sounds like being a DM is a PITA.

You're suprised by this?

 

[Doc]

You're suprised by this?

Apparently. I'll tell all my DM buddies to take it easy.

 

[boulderjohn]

don't get me wrong...I'm just using some scenario to paint a picture because from what I've been reading, sounds like being a DM is a PITA. I'll lead the dive for whoever wants to follow but it doesn't mean I'm your dive buddy. Use you compass because if you tell me that you're low on air, then i'll tell you to take your buddy and head back to the boat. I wouldn't want to end a dive for a group because of one diver.

You seem to be limiting your concept of DM'ing to one kind of dive site, ones that don't often use DM's in the water. When I have been on DM-led dives, they are all quite different from that.

They might be drift dives in potentially dangerous currents, as in Cozumel, where the people are not supposed to navigatge to the boat, the boat is supposed to navigate to them. If these people are scattered all over the Caribbean, someone is sure to be missed.

When I was on the east side of Grand Cayman, the first dive was deep, and the DM's led us on complex routes we could not have possibly found on our own. For the second, shallower dives, we were on our own.

When I was in Thailand, our dives were often complex affairs, with specific beginning and end points that you really could not expect anyone to navigate who was not familiar with the area. Again, even the most skilled user of compasses would not be able to get to the appointed pickup spot.

 

[Cacia]

so, I have a question, if everyone is ascending, and you have 2000 psi left, have you ever just sort of nonchalantly pretended not to notice and keep diving...? Sometimes it is better just not to look.