DM pay or free to 'hold hand'?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

RonFrank:
Christi,

You've just explained why someone willing to take a DM on the boat at no charge, and even pay for air IS compensation.

There is certainly nothing wrong with recreational boat owners using the boat for diving. There are things that should be considered. IMO having O2 on the Boat is one example. But IMO one does NOT need to be a trained, and licensed Captain to go boat diving.

As for liability, when does the DM become Liable for someone diving with them? I would think that without a contract, and payment, there would be no liability. If payment was made, and an agreement signed then there is liability.

Ironically every contract I've ever signed using a DiveOP is FULL of releases that basically say that diving is dangerous, and they are NOT responsible if I am injured or die. In fact, I sign a similar waiver every time I take training with the LDS, or even just use their pool :D

So with that said, when exactly IS a DM or Instructor liable?? :D Based on all the stuff I've had to sign it would seem... never... :11:

NKY Diver did a good job of explaining it.

Once you cross that professional line, you have a certain amount of implied responsibility, whther in a signed contract or not.

The PADI Divemaster course and of course the IDC has a whole section on risk management. As a DM, you have a duty of care to those you lead...again whether with a signed contract or not. Of course diving has inherent risks and divers need to be aware of these risks, hence the releases. By signing the release, you have given your INFORMED CONSENT and you have accepted the inherent risks of scuba diving as a participant.

Divemasters are expected to act as a reasonably prudent prson would and the duty of care lies in making his/her best effort to avoid reasonably foreseeable accidents. Negligence comes into play when the DM breaches this duty of care. It's ultimately up to a court of law to determine whether there was a duty of care related to the specific incident and if that duty of care was breached, directly or indirectly causing the accident....this is liability.

Signing the forms does not keep you from getting sued. In many legal systems, including the US, someone can file a suit against you without having to prove liability...even if you did nothing wrong.

The releases are an added layer of protection and demonstrate a good faith effort to inform the participants of all risks involved.

So whether working in a diveshop or out on a boat...in the event of an accident, as a professional, you have a duty of care to follow proper protocol and procedures to prevent any foreseeable accidents.

As far as not having to be a trained and licensed boat captain to go boat diving, again, that depends on where you are. Some places require it...Cozumel for example. And while not required in other places, it certainly is a prudent thing to consider. If drift diving is involved, the captian of the boat needs to be able to follow the divers bubbles and he needs to be aware of where the divers are at all times so as not to run over them no?

There's a book by PADI called "The Law and the Diving Professional" it is a great resource for all DM's and instructors...even non-professional level divers.

Hope that's answered SOME of your questions :)
 
cdiver2:
I would say the one's to look at for the DM's not being able to make a living at it are the dive operters.....pay the DM's nothing and expect them to get it from tips.

Again, that depends on the location and the operation. My guys get paid a salary plus a per trip fee. Of course this doens't mean they don't deserve tips...but I don't expect the customers to support them either.
 
TyTy:
As for the comments directed towards the question at hand, thank you I appreciate the conveyance of knowledge.

Well Ty - to bring this back on line - what conclusions/decisions have you made based on this dialog.
 
Christi:
Again, that depends on the location and the operation. My guys get paid a salary plus a per trip fee. Of course this doens't mean they don't deserve tips...but I don't expect the customers to support them either.

If you don't mind me asking is it a livable wage IE could they survive on it without tips, doe's not have to be a $ amount but akin to say someone that paints a house's for a living---to a mechanic.

I do know there are DM's in the states that do it part time for tips only.
 
TyTy:
No, I dont care about being guided. I know where I want to dive, I know how I want to dive it I just dont want to be alone seeing as how it will be our first time without a group as well as first time in that spot.

What spots are you looking to dive?

I'm in the Pensacola area, just on the other side of the FL/AL line. I'll gladly not take responsibility for you and not hold your hand for a free dive. :D I can get a buddy, especially if they go for free as well. I've got my own tanks, no need to provide anything but the ride out :wink:

I don't mind shallower reefs, it'd still be nice to get a bit off the beach so I'm game. ~150 dives, some shallow, some deep(100+'), some fresh water, some salt, some great conditions, some horrible, night, low vis, some off a boat, some off a canoe, some off the beach, ect.

DennisS:
There are thousands of boater/divers that go out on any nice weekend in Florida. They dive without Instructors, Divemasters, accidents or incidents.

I started diving from my boat about 30 years ago, it was a small boat and going in and out the inlet was the most dangerous part of the trip.

I have a 10' Zodiac, I know this feeling exactly. :wink:
 
cdiver2:
If you don't mind me asking is it a livable wage IE could they survive on it without tips, doe's not have to be a $ amount but akin to say someone that paints a house's for a living---to a mechanic.

I do know there are DM's in the states that do it part time for tips only.

Yes, I think so..of course that is provided that they stay busy and have trips every day. However, I think tips REALLY help them.
 
Christi:
Yes, I think so..of course that is provided that they stay busy and have trips every day. However, I think tips REALLY help them.

thats not to bad. I worked a second full time job at an airport (evenings 4-12pm) as a skycap, pay was $1.80 PH no medical benefits, overtime, vacation or Holiday pay. I found the tips were feast or famine. One evening $180 in six hours.....one weekend $10
 
During the investigation your real status would be known.
Just showing your lower card will not make you not an instructor.
Everyone speculates on what would happen if the situation would occur, but in all the cases I have seen (where many have been thrown out) If the person did not have a duty to act or was not directly responsible for the person (example: a student direclty under the persons care) charges were not brought.
However, if anyone has any proof as in case numbers or decisions please let me know.

-gm


nkydiver:
RonFrank,

This is why the dive shop advised that if we were traveling and diving, and not part of a dive shop sponsored activity, we may only want to carry our master diver cards, and not advise anyone of our status as DiveCons or Instructors. :wink:
 
gjmmotors:
During the investigation your real status would be known.
Just showing your lower card will not make you not an instructor.
Everyone speculates on what would happen if the situation would occur, but in all the cases I have seen (where many have been thrown out) If the person did not have a duty to act or was not directly responsible for the person (example: a student direclty under the persons care) charges were not brought.
However, if anyone has any proof as in case numbers or decisions please let me know.

-gm

I wanted to point that out as well...but forgot to.

Also, I guess I should make my point clear. I am not sayingthat as a DM/Instructor you are automaticlaly liable for any accident that may occur. That would be determned in an investigation/court of law...the fact does remain that as a professional you do have significant EXPOSURE to liability issues. Insurance/waivers, etc. are there to help shield us from this exposure.
 
Does a boat ride or tank usage put food on the table or pay the cable bill? Have you ever gotten any other professional (say a plumber) to fix your toilet for free tank usage? How about an electrician to wire your house for a boat ride?

If these people are your friends than perhaps bartering is in order. I think it is unreasonable to expect any professional in any field to work for free. Remember, this is your trip....not theirs... and you'll be paying for their professional leadership and to make sure you get yourself back out of the water safely.

If anything I believe dive leaders should make more than other professions... after all... besides doctors and lawyers, none of the other professions have a hand in keeping you alive...
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

Back
Top Bottom