Diving the spill

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The straight up answer is that it cannot be cleaned up, no armies, no navies, no blessing from Obama, no amount of money can set this right. It will be well beyond my lifetime before this damage is fully undone by nature's hand and healing time.

All the talk of cleaning it up is just political and corporate CYA BS for the ignorant burger eating amusement park, TV educated masses.

Six dollars a gallon gasoline--now---will get the ball rolling for alternative energy and the "tariff" windfall spent to:

A. Clean up the Gulf
B. Invest in new energy development
C. Subsidize downsizing transportation
D. Reinvigorate urban centers as living centers and develop light, high speed rail.

Within a year or two nobody will remember any of this anymore than they remember Katrina or 911. It will be forgotten and the damage left to God to deal with.

And still the well spews unabated ------.

N

Prefice: I DO think this spill is a disaster. I do think BP (and really Transocean) should be held responsible for this disaster.

1. $6 a gallon gas is a political attempt to right subsidies in other energy delivery pathways (namely line-delivered power). Monopolies in power transmission industries lead to (politically-set) prices below that of an equilibrium (why do you think we had rolling blackouts? Answer: prices below equilibrium leading to a supply shortage). Energy is more expensive that the price we pay for multiple reasons--politically-set prices, liability caps leading to incorrectly set insurance premiums, etc. All of these things SHOULD be covered in the price charged by any business attempting to make a profit in this industry (and conversely by the consumers purchasing these products). Don't politically increase the price because those profits or taxes will not flow to insurance premiums, safety measures, liability costs, etc. as they would if accounting of these items was forced (or, more accurately, the price of these items is not held from the market price paid by the consumer and the true liability of these items not shielded from the business' responsibility--the accounting of these items is not forced BECAUSE of subsidies and caps, not because they're not true costs the business is ignoring). Rather it would seem much more intuitive to release politically motivated liability caps on the business side and release politically motivated price floors on the consumer side (the later being less politically-tenable, but analogous to the former, expect that everyone hates businesses and loves the little guy...).

2. I'm willing to make a bet. 20 years hence the amount of proven oil reserves will be higher than the amount of proven oil reserves today and, excepting taxes, oil will be cheaper, controlled for inflation, than it is today.

3. A 'tariff' with the purported purpose of cleaning the Gulf, investing in new energy development, subsidizing downsize transportation, and re-invigorating urban centers as living centers and developing high-speed rail is a bit of a non sequitor. First, the belief that the revenue will continue to be spent in that fashion after everyone has relegated this spill to memory is unlikely at best. Second, all points except point one happen as a result of economic viability, not because they're forced. This is not to say they can't be forced, but they end up being forced by adding subsidies to one area BECAUSE of subsidies already in place for another, doing nothing but increasing the cost of ALL sources and delaying further innovation.

To address each point.

1. Cleaning the Gulf. BP/Transocean, etc. should be held responsible for this. Make them responsible for it. Don't subsidize these companies at the expense of other companies/consumers.

2. Investing in new energy development. Make consumers bear the cost and businesses the true liability of their consumption and activities, respectively. Largely, this is a non-political activity in as much as it involves removal of subsidies and liability caps ($75MM right now). It's ridiculous to assume good intentions with subsidized new energy development when there is a continued subsidization of both the consumer and business end of oil production BY THAT SAME GOVERNMENT. This is a shell game of industry welfare.

3. Subsidizing downsize transportation. See above. Oil is subsidized and this leads and has lead to barriers to innovation. Subsidizing something, even new energy production, leads to decreased incentives for R&D and speed of innovation. Which new energy is subsidized? At the expense of what un-subsidized energy source, known or not?

4. Re-invigorating urban centers as living centers and developing high speed rail. Largely these are disconnected goals. High speed rail does not make for living urban centers. It makes for connection of distant locations. Stops are too proximate in an urban center for high speed rail. Maybe you meant light rail AND high speed rail, rather than light, high speed rail. Same story re: subsidization, though. Largely development of these items is stalled by subsidization of existing energy sources, not a lack of subsidization of rail--why subsidize both when you could release a subsidization on one and increase economic viability of the other without throwing money at both?

As much as everyone says they like to keep politics out of this, this is a disaster largely caused and abetted by political calculations (whether or not those calculations were at the behest of industry is largely irrelevent to whether or not politics is involved in this). Make those responsible pay (both consumer and business). Make those engaging in activities bear the cost and liability of those activities (both consumer and business). This is the way to keep politics out of it. Wishing politics out of it is just the machinations of a naive, unrealistic line of reasoning.
 
The Louisiana economy hasn't been significantly affected by the recession because of rebuilding after Katrina and the oil industry. Now the oil spill has shutdown the some of the seafood industry and charter fishing industry and now the government want to pour salt into the wound by shutting down offshore drilling which can effect as many as 50,000 jobs. These are $50,000 to $75,000 a year jobs but Obama says don't worry everyone will get unemployment compensation.
If an airliner crashes and kills 300 people do we shut down the entire airline industry until the cause is determined.
I was responding to the suggestion that the coastal elites should be more outraged over the environmental damage. Perhaps, but certainly no more than Louisianans should be. Personally, I think responsible off-shore drilling is a vital part of a sound energy policy, as I have made clear here in the past. Knee-jerk responses like the drilling moratorium are, in my opinion, political posturing almost as embarrassing as the "whose ass to kick" comments. But I don't want to go into Pub territory and I do think that the current lax regulatory climate is at least as much a function of the last administration as the current one.
 
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I was responding to the suggestion that the coastal elites should be more outraged over the environmental damage. Perhaps, but certainly no more than Louisianans should be. Personally, I think responsible off-shore drilling is a vital part of a sound energy policy, as I have made clear here in the past. Knee-jerk responses like the drilling moratorium are, in my opinion, political posturing almost as embarrassing as the "whose ass to kick" comments. But I don't want to go into Pub territory and I do think that the current lax regulatory climate is at least as much a function of the past administrations as the current one.

+1 with the changes.:)
 
Unfortunately we are reaping the spoils of a regulatory system that relies on industry insiders to determine the regulations. A classic case of putting the fox in charge of the chicken coop.

We've further compounded the error by putting the perpetrator in charge of fixing the problem ... even to the point of allocating National Guard personnel to help keep the public from viewing what they're doing about it.

I personally doubt that BP is putting as much effort into stopping the leak or planning the clean-up as they are into figuring out how to limit their liability.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I can assure you they care and are putting plenty of effort into it. Keep in mind that if they are spewing 19,000 barrels a day into the ocean, they are losing $1.4 a day. While I believe that is their only motivation, at least it is motivation.
 
Does anyone here know why all of the the oil is not floating on the surface? Is this because of the use of the chemical dispersants?

What are dispersants, and what are the pros and cons of using dispersants?

My personal hunch (*opinion*) is that BP figured out that the general public only considers it a spill on the surface... so they are treating the oil to keep it underwater, out of sight. The problem is we don't know alot about the deep ocean and we have little access to it. My guess is it will get into the gulf stream and wind up in England in a few months.
 
Uh, where did this come from?:confused:

I was ground zero for medical waste on the Jersey Shore, and I am pretty dog gone positive that we received no where near the amount of attention that this spill is getting. (and rightly so)

In case you have some cable trouble up there in Alaska, this is front and center of the National news every day for 50 days now. There have been Congressional hearings. This is about as big as it gets.

The only reason it might get more...whatever... on the Right and Left coasts is because, well, more people live there. That is only natural, more people affected means more voices screaming. But to be honest I do not remember the mainstream media ever paying this much air time to an environmental catastrophe in, well ever.

I really don't see where anyone can get the impression that the GoM is missing out on anything from the rest of the country over this.

Now, on the other hand, if you are interested in what the government is planning on doing about this issue, allow me to enlighten...
.

Medical waste was a big story in an era where 24-hour news cycle was extremely rare.

Our cable works fine in Alaska, thanks for asking. I am a CSPAN junkie. Congressional hearings are orchestrated and choreographed affairs that allow members to postion take on any issue of importance to their constituencies while building a record to run on while claiming credit for something that happened or avoiding blame if they can't.

There have been lots of media attention to environmental issues (Three mile island, bophal, chernobyl, SB oil spill, Exxon Valdez, etc).

What I find is missing is the groundswell of public outrage. People like David Helvarg at Blue Frontier are trying to ignite it, but he is about the only one. Other enviro groups see it as a fund raising opportunity, but initial indications are that their membership rolls are not swelling. One group refers to the GOM in years past as the "national sacrifice area" when it came to oil development, the place where it would be allowed to expand just so long as it was not expanded to the east and west coast.

A simple and elegant explanation of an issue's ability to capture the public's imagination was offered by Anthony Downs in the issue attention cycle in 1972.
http://www.nationalaffairs.com/docl...ecologytheissueattentioncycleanthonydowns.pdf

I just can't understand why we have not slipped into the alarmed discovery stage.

I won't belabor the point...it is probably best left to a new thread.
 
What I find is missing is the groundswell of public outrage. People like David Helvarg at Blue Frontier are trying to ignite it, but he is about the only one. Other enviro groups see it as a fund raising opportunity, but initial indications are that their membership rolls are not swelling. One group refers to the GOM in years past as the "national sacrifice area" when it came to oil development, the place where it would be allowed to expand just so long as it was not expanded to the east and west coast.

Gotcha. FWIW most environmental groups are not much different than Congress...all hot air intended to influence politics, and not very much substance. I do not gauge anything from them. I am with you on that front, I have no idea why these [-]vultures[/-] highly-passionate-not-for-profit-only-do-good groups are not [-]capitalizing[/-] having a larger grass roots impact here.

I thought you meant in general. News coverage is, well, it is not always the lead story in NYC or Philly news shows, but most days it has the most time allotted.

Everyone I know or meet is pretty outraged over it. There is also is big sense of helplessness about it. I know a few people who are heading down to volunteer.

And this is in the NYC news orbit where we very rarely hear about anything that does not directly impact here.
 
I must say that I have been avoiding looking at the photos ..... simply because it saddens me and gets me so angry to see the devastation caused by this leak. However I have been forcing myself to look and what I am seeing is all photos of land based animals that have been affected. There are a few turtles and fish and dolphins but after being washed up.

I think the further danger is that the general public gets passionate about these photos but we have no idea of knowing what the real impact is. I am sure the sea bed is littered with dead marine life (we just cant see it) I am sure that the migratory life have passed through and gone on to die elsewhere (we just have not seen it) I am sure that all of the oil is not rising to the surface and the water column is just as bad or worst than what we see on the surface.

Its not just the visible marine life affected, but the plankton, the very basic food source of some of the largest marine animals known to man. Its been two months now that this spill has been active and efforts have been meager and unsuccessful. Having reached the Florida Keys, and soon to be up the Atlantic Coast, it will soon reach the Caribbean. I have heard nothing from our Governments on the matter but that's expected since we can barely regulate overfishing so tell me how such poorer independent states can stop this.

I love Diving, and I love it because of what I see, and how I feel in that open blue. There is so much that depends on the health of our oceans and reefs and this has father reaching effects than just food sources and sustainability. Without our reefs to protect the mainland, there will be more and more beach erosion, there will be less protection from storm surge during hurricanes, leading to more and more shoreline damage, flooding and loss of the landmass of already small islands.

I have read some of the treads and I agree with the comments that oil will not go anywhere, we will not see the absence of it or its need in any hurry and so we continue to face the treats of such events as oil spills (on and off land) and I must say that I feel so helpless and powerless to stop it. We place our trust (as we vote for them) in the governments elected and support them with our tax dollars, and therefore we should demand protection against the greed of large corporate entities, request stronger regulatory bodies and stronger and more specific legislation.

But we are so good at becoming complacent and relaxing when things are "fine" and acting only when there is a crisis. Generally we are selfish and greedy and unless we can regulate that within ourselves I fear things will never get better ....but worst.

What to do?.....What to do?

Katherine
 
A classic use of the passive voice to avoid assigning blame/credit. How about adding a subject, i.e. "[Fill in the blank] reported yesterday that..." so we can check out the source? The spill is very, very bad, we all know it is... but can we maybe refrain from demagoguing about it?

I'm afraid you are confusing other posters with journalists. We SB posters are not being paid to provide you with our time and research.

Anyone wishing to verify the information could simply Google "BP search Engines" and get the story directly from CBS, ABC, and many other sources. No demagoguery was involved.

But, since you ask:

BP Buys Search Engine Phrases Redirecting Users - ABC News

BP Buys 'Oil Spill' Term on Search Engines - CBS News
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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