Review Diving the Avelo System

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Short answer: probably, but I suspect for reasons other than what you're thinking based on your post.

Details:
At the beginning of the dive you would want to be positively buoyant by +2 lb. Assume this is possible. If you consumed all the gas in the Avelo tank, there would be room for an additional 9 L of water or 20 lb of ballast (ignoring the space the bladder takes up for simplicity). That's the equivalent of about 250 cuft of gas you could conceivably take with you and consume while still remaining neutral.

The difficulty lies with that initial assumption. For the normal Avelo system, the "fixed parts" (cylinder/plate/pump/batteries/lead/diver) have some buoyancy (call it X1), and we know the total buoyancy will be +2 lb. Since X1 - 6 lb (Avelo gas weight) = +2 lb, we see that X1 = +8 lb. If you add an AL80/reg, the fixed buoyancy will increase by +2 lb (assuming +4 lb empty tank in salt water - 2 lb reg), so X2 = +10 lb. The total buoyancy will then be: B2 = +10 lb (X2) - 6 lb (Avelo gas weight) - 6 lb (AL80 gas weight) = -2 lb.

That's a problem, but possibly not insurmountable. If you had added lead to the system, you could just remove 4 lb of lead, and you're back to your target +2 lb starting buoyancy. Enjoy the additional bottom time and watch that NDL.

If you didn't add lead (e.g., you are diving without a wetsuit), what do you do? Avelo already solved this issue by making "buoyancy pads" (I believe out of plastic) that can be attached to the system to increase its buoyancy. (Search upthread, and you'll run across mention of them.) The crucial question is whether those pads can add 4 additional pounds of buoyancy. You're looking at a volume increase of at least the size of a 2L soda bottle (not even counting the weight of the plastic). I have no idea how much buoyancy those pads add or how many attachment points are built-in.

Another option might be to use a more buoyant tank. Connecting the dots, you may guess this is why Avelo chose the carbon-wrapped cylinder in the first place. It wasn't just for the "cool factor".

Bottom line: I believe a side-mounted AL80 would work with Avelo in most cases. Weighting will be CRITICAL to safety and successful usage, but that's already the case for the normal system.
I see three possible conclusions:

1. It's a corporate oversight. I can see a reasonable, if somewhat far-fetched explanation of some overzealous corporate stooge deciding this is important information that must be kept secret to avoid competitors ripping their product or something, or just straight up not realizing this is information divers would want/need. The big issue with this is, going by the video that was posted here, the founder is a diver, and would know that weight and buoyancy (and therefore volume) is a huge selling point to divers. Perhaps he's handing the marketing/information management off to a subordinate who's never been diving before though.

2. Perhaps the exact weight/dimensions of the unit changes fairly frequently, as newer materials, better batteries, smaller motors, etc. are incorporated into the design. Thus, there's "no point" in publishing a weight estimate that would soon become out of date and misleading. Credence to this is that, if you look at the Avelo total product weight from early in this thread vs now, the overall weight estimation of Avelo went up five pounds. Perhaps they wish to avoid such changes as much as possible. The major issue with this is that the total system weight has changed only once to my knowledge, therefore implying that such changes are in fact, rather rare.

3. They have something to hide. Perhaps they want to make it difficult for people to make direct, one-to-one weight comparisons of their current rig to Avelo. If I knew, for example, the exact buoyancy of an Avelo system, I could compare it to my own system to determine the lead I could lose, and from there come up with an exact weight differential between them, which might be less favorable than Avelo indicates on their marketing material. Supporting evidence for this is the rather impressive 75 lb weight estimate they give the typical scuba diver on their site, and the fact that, as I've said several times before (and still not received a good explanation for) Avelo actually increased their estimate of the average diver's kit weight by 5 lbs when Avelo's system weight increased, so that the difference remained 30 lbs despite Avelo being five pounds heavier than it was before. Note that this motivation isn't simply "Avelo is lying about their product being lighter" and more "Avelo is providing a product that aims to reduce weight, and benefits from you not being able to do the math and say 'eh, five pounds isn't really worth the trouble.'"

Please note that I do consider any of these three motivations, a combination of all three, or some secret fourth motivation I haven't thought of to be entirely plausible. I still find the change in the average diver's weight from 70 to 75 lbs on their site to be extremely suspcious, and would love an explanation of that. Like, please people, I think this is a cool product. I'd love to see what they'll make of it in five or ten years. If the price point ever comes down enough, I might even buy one. But the math kinda ain't mathing on some of these claims.

And like, seriously. On a diver charter in Ha'waii, I dove a rental jacket style bcd with standard AL 80 and normal regulator. All were scubapro brand gear. The 80 weighed 35 lbs, as is standard. I don't remember the exact BCD, but it was a decently high end scubapro, not one of those mass market "shop only" BCDs some companies allegedly make, and the heaviest scubapro jacket style BCD I found on their site was 10 lbs. I had 10 lbs of lead. The reg probably weight 2 lbs at the most. So, overall weight: 57 lbs, on the high estimate. This is 12 lbs above avelo, at the very most, and not the 30 lbs their site advertises.

Now, this is a decent amount of weight to save, and almost all of the savings are in lead I can now ditch, which is wonderful because adding something heavy to my kit which already weighs too much has always been frustrating...but why can't they just say 12 lbs of weight saved? Or give a range of 6-18 lbs or 12-20 lbs or whatever. Saying you save thirty pounds feels extremely cherry picked at the best, and at worst, does make me question the validity of their product overall. I don't know of any diver that's not using an unnecessary amount of lead with a 75 lbs single tank warm water rig.

Let me reiterate. I like the product. I'd happily try it, if doing so did not require traveling far, far away from where I live and spending several hundred dollars I don't currently have to spare. I would love an explanation of why the weight numbers don't add up. I'm just pointing out issues here people.
I haven't actually weighed an Avelo System but can assure you that it is way lighter than Standard Scuba, not least as you carry much less weight for buoyancy.

For example a full aluminum 80 weighs 40lb give or take a few ounces. A L ScubaPro Hydros is 11.75 lbs. A MK25 first stage is 2.65 lbs with a primary. Add hoses an Octo, and an SPG and you're probably 4-5 lbs lets call it 4. Now we're at around 56 lbs before we add weights. When I dive a Hydros I need 14-16lbs depending on my wetsuit. So for me a standard setup is right around 70 - 72 lbs. Currently when I dive Avelo I need 3lbs of lead. In another couple of months my wetsuit will have deteriorated a bit more and I won't need any weight when diving Avelo. So Diving Avelo saves me around 20 - 25 lbs. That is pretty significant. I definitely feel the difference when I climb the ladder back onto the boat.

Every diver is different though and weight needs differ dramatically.

I won't comment on the changes in published weight of an Avelo system. I've no actual idea. But I would point out this is a startup company with a lot of moving parts. It's also a high integrity company that would not intentionally mislead or misinform.
 
@EdMcNeill09 To clarify, when I talk about a change in published weights, I'm not referring to the fact Avelo's weight changed. That's quite understandable. It was a new product at the time, and changes are made. I'm talking about the fact that when Avelo's published weight increased by 5 lbs, the estimated standard scuba weight increased by the same amount. The gut instinct of the skeptical consumer is to say "Oh, so their system increased in weight by five pounds, so they increased the estimate because marketing says there needs to be a 30 lbs delta. That's shady."

Now of course, there is another, perfectly reasonable explanation that shows Avelo much more positively: They forgot to account for something in their weight totals, initially. Probably, judging by the weight, they forgot to add in the weight of the regset. Realizing the oversight, they adjusted, and so both weight totals increased by the same amount because both were getting the added weight of the regset. Or something like that. Completely understandable, not shady at all. This is an entirely plausible, highly probable explanation.

But I feel like, if that's the case, it would be a good idea for them to add an asterick, or some other notation, to inform the viewer of the change and why it was made. Simple, easy, transparent thing to do, that puts to rest any feeling of doubt or unease. Because otherwise, it just looks weird and kinda sketchy, and weird and kinda sketchy is a bad look for a high end tech startup. Feels like an explanation on their part is a good idea, that's all I'm saying.
 
For example a full aluminum 80 weighs 40lb give or take a few ounces. A L ScubaPro Hydros is 11.75 lbs. A MK25 first stage is 2.65 lbs with a primary. Add hoses an Octo, and an SPG and you're probably 4-5 lbs lets call it 4. Now we're at around 56 lbs before we add weights. When I dive a Hydros I need 14-16lbs depending on my wetsuit. So for me a standard setup is right around 70 - 72 lbs. Currently when I dive Avelo I need 3lbs of lead. In another couple of months my wetsuit will have deteriorated a bit more and I won't need any weight when diving Avelo. So Diving Avelo saves me around 20 - 25 lbs. That is pretty significant. I definitely feel the difference when I climb the ladder back onto the boat.

The weight thing is massive marketing BS.

It makes absolutely no sense to compare Avelo to a traditional BCD with AL80 and all the lead needed to sink those things. The inventor was attempting to save weight and minimizing bouyancy change even if it meant extra expense and hassle. So why wouldn't he be comparing it to the type of rig that those of us who are also concerned about those things are already using?

It's like he invented the carbon fiber road bike and then claimed it was 20 pounds lighter than the average department store bike. That might be true but it completely ignores the reality that people who were primarily concerned about weight were riding steel or aluminum frames that weighed only a couple of pounds more than carbon fiber. Oh, and they cost 75% less.

The reasonable starting point for comparison should be a minimal BP/W system with an HP80. Yes, it's an extra expense to procure an HP80 instead of an AL80, but if weight is a major concern it's still a whole lot less than paying for Avelo training and rental charges.

This is exactly what I used for shore dives a couple of weeks ago in Coz. My BP/W weighs 8.8 pounds. This includes a long steel plate, wing with 18# lift, tank bands, harness with stainless buckle, pair of trim pockets, and a sheath for my EMT shears. It doesn't include regs or accessories like lights or a DSMB because I'd need the same things if I were using Avelo.

An empty HP80 weighs 28.3 pounds without valve. I assume the Avelo tank uses a standard valve and they would both start with the same weight of gas so that's a wash.

That's just under 37 pounds for the stuff that is equivalent to the Avelo jetpack + tank with all of its hardware (valve, pump, hose, and battery).

I did not need any additional lead on my dives (steel tank and steel backplate). From what we've heard, most people need between 3 and 6 pounds of lead with Avelo.

So how much above-water weight am I going to save with Avelo? There's no way it's more than a handful of pounds and I wouldn't be in the least surprised if my setup was lighter.

Note that I'm only talking about weight here. I'm perfectly willing to accept that the relatively stable bouyancy of Avelo is a pretty neat feature. But a BP/W has advantages too other than price and easy availability. A couple of the big ones are the flexibility to use higher capacity tanks and the reserve bouyancy from the wing if needed for a rescue or on the surface.
 
Charitably, I could compare Avelo to Lane Departure Warnings and Lane Keep Assist: no competent driver needs them, they add unnecessary complexity and cost, and they can be actively dangerous if things go wrong.
 
I have suggested to Avelo that they put the weight of an empty Hydrotank and the weight of a Jetpack on their website so that anyone can make their own comparison regarding equipment weight.

These weights used to appear in the advanced section of the Recreational Avelo Diver course but are no longer listed there. I have previously posted the weight of Avelo gear vs. my traditional scuba gear for my warm water diving in Bonaire with a 3 mm wetsuit. With Avelo gear, I used 4 lbs of weight. For traditional gear, I used 34 lbs for the empty AL80, 8.8 lbs for my BC, and I use 10 lbs of weight. The weight of gas for this comparison is essentially the same, perhaps a little less for Avelo, and is not included. My Avelo gear weighed 38.1 lbs while my traditional gear weighed 52.8 lbs, just under a 15 lb weight savings with Avelo.
 
Charitably, I could compare Avelo to Lane Departure Warnings and Lane Keep Assist: no competent driver needs them, they add unnecessary complexity and cost, and they can be actively dangerous if things go wrong.
When I bought a Porsche Boxster my father told me it was just a dressed up Volkswagen. I told him if Volkswagen ever made a car like this I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

No diver needs Avelo. No diver needs Apex regs or Steel 80s either. Divers don't need much actually. It's about what we want to dive with. I have a friend who still dives a horse collar here on Oahu. I've never seen him in a bcd that wasn't at least 50 years old. I'm pretty sure he has well over 10,000 dives on Oahu. Great diver.

I like him but also like nice things.
 
When I bought a Porsche Boxster my father told me it was just a dressed up Volkswagen. I told him if Volkswagen ever made a car like this I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
Car analogies are my favorite.

So it's the Boxster of scuba rigs? Expensive, limited in capability (2 seats, low ground clearance), but a joy to use within its element.

I once owned a Subaru Impreza Sport wagon. That fits with my rig. Or maybe a Civic SI hatchback.

Traditional jacket BCDs would be '90s Ford Explorers with 200 pounds of luggage in the back.

:-)
 
So I went out diving this weekend, and the water being rather cold, I wore my new 7mm semidry. As is my habit with river diving, I wanted to be very negative to better keep a low profile and avoid being swept away by the current. I haven't weighed my rig yet, but I know I had 24 lbs of lead (compared to 4-8lbs for a calm, warm, freshwater dive FYI) plus AL 80, BCD, hardhat, lights, and regset. I figure total weight probably clocked in at between 75 and 80 lbs. (again, bear in mind, this setup is for a specific location and application. For a sightseeing dive in warm water, I'd drop 20-30 lbs).

And to be honest, it wasn't that bad, except hauling it back into the boat afterward, but it did get me thinking: what do you consider to be a truly substantial reduction in weight?

Because realistically, if we take Avelo's weight estimates as accurate (and based on what people here have said, for your typical jacket style BCD, it seems about right) it saves you 30 lbs of weight, from 75 lbs to 45 lbs, but 45-50 lbs isn't necessarily "light" by any stretch. This is still more weight than most people could carry for long distances, but what sort of impact does it have in the short term? Does it take you from "Oh gosh, I'm dying" to "this is rough, but I can do it" or is more of a "This is a pain" to "Wow, that was easy." Or some combination thereof?

Personal experience, when I go camping, I'm usually carrying about an Avelo worth of weight on a hiking trail, because I love my external frame backpack and my many unnecessary pieces of camping equipment more than I love having a lightweight pack, so I don't know that I'm necessarily who this is for. However, I'm also in my 20's, so perhaps I should amend a "yet" to that statement. So, those of you who have tried this system and also use the fairly heavy jacket style setups, how much of a difference does that 30 lbs (or whatever your personal total is) actually make, in practice?
 
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