Diving manners?

[MXGratefulDiver]

I keep reading this but just don't buy it - unless the diver is SEVERELY oveweighted to the point that their BC is full and they are still negative. How difficult a concept is it to add more air to your BC if you are negatively buoyant? If you have 4 lbs too much lead, the concept is the same: Add some air.

Then I suggest you go back to your Basic Open Water text and read the section where they cover Boyle's Law.

Most people overweight because they haven't learned proper descent techniques ... and so they think they need more weight than they actually do in order to descend. Overweighting is a poor solution to the problem, because it induces even greater buoyancy control difficulties for the duration of your dive. What you need to do instead is work on your descent technique, and realize that the solution to the problem is tied more to how you breathe and what your fins are doing when you descend than it is to the amount of lead you're wearing.

Simply put, you only need to be 1 or 2 lbs negatively buoyant in order to sink. Once you start to sink, the air in every air space in your body compresses. The deeper you go, the more it compresses. The more air you have in your BCD, the greater the compression will affect you as you change depth. Wearing too much lead means that as compression happens, you have to add greater amounts of air to your BCD to compensate for the effect that compression is having on your buoyancy.

The reverse is true when you ascend ... the air expands as you come shallower. The more air in your BCD to compensate for overweighting, the greater the change will be for any given change in depth.

If you are 4 lbs overweighted, and you rise a couple of feet, you will certainly feel it. If you don't react quickly enough, the expansion of the air in your BCD will change so fast that you will accelerate ... and by the time you are able to react you may not be able to let air out of your BCD fast enough to avoid an uncontrolled ascent. If you do manage to let the air out fast enough, you will most likely let out too much, and descend. This is a classic symptom for divers who are overweighted ... they tend to bounce up and down a lot. They also tend to be vertical in the water, because the only way they can maintain a reasonable level of buoyancy control is to make themselves negatively buoyant and constantly kick up to stay in place.

A good diver will only wear as much weight as is required to overcome the buoyancy of their exposure suit. They will have learned how to compensate for depth-induced buoyancy changes by altering their breathing pattern (using your "internal BCD"). You can only perfect this technique with practice ... but it should have been explained to you in your basic OW class.

Beyond your OW class dives, where you are teaching your body how to do these things, there is no reason to, and no excuse for, overweighting. It only lengthens the learning curve ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Diver Dennis]

I agree too Charlie. It's sometimes easier to remember divers who don't listen than the vast majority that do. I'm not a DM or instructor but I dive quite a bit and have had the time to work out pretty good bouyancy and talking to folks between dives have had them ask how to improve their bouyancy. I'm more than happy to look at the way they are weighted etc. and give some advice. You're right, most people do welcome advice and for us to realise that some people are too self-concious to come right out and ask.

 

[Charlie99]

However, you still get the old school guys trained in 1964 with 28 pounds of lead and a lycra suit who don't want to listen to some whipper snapper in their twenties telling them how to dive....

Having a laid back attitude and being 25 years older than most of my insta-buddies makes it easier to give advice

Although laid back, I don't hesitate to do things like swim up and grab a fin of a buddy obliviously swimming away at high speed from me and another buddy. Most of the time, though, doing things the right way is also the easiest. For example, if my buddy leads the first dive and I stay up even with him rather than above and behind, then when I lead on the next dive it's likely he'll take up that position too.

The only divers I have trouble with are the braggarts, and the fake Navy Seals and UDT divers. It's rare that I dive with them though, since they are easy to spot.

 

[Lil' Irish Temper]

Please enlighten us (or maybe just me).. What is the "correct" way? So I do not have a blazing sign "IDIOT" on my forehead.

Thanks

Apparently you've never had a pair of fins smash your head while your doing a hang. It sucks.

Example:

Last week we dove a wreck, and another dive boat showed up at the same time, so the captain let them tie off to us. Well, the diver count went from 6 of us to about 13-15 in the water at once.

One mooring line, 6 divers coming up, and 8 going down. Not pretty.

It doesn't have to be a mess, just like a road rightside down, leftside up or vise versa.

We did a hang at 40 feet no problems, then went to 15 feet for a 3 minute hang. Then she turned ugly. When the other group was descending one of their divers was having a problem as soon as they hit the water. But they managed to pull their way down to 14 feet, feet towards the sky hanging on the other side, across from us.

ROADBLOCK and BOTTLE NECK

This diver was determined to dive, and was not going to go back up. But they hung on the line, and caused mass confusion, so after our hang we surfaced with 3 extra divers who we had NO clue who they were and they didn't know us either. These guys hung with us and wasted part of their dive, because that one person who refused to yield, or move to the other side of the line, caused them to think they were still with their group. Even if that person had move to the side the other divers would probably made it to their group.

If your having problems move out of the way, or do like your suppose to - Surface.

 

[Charlie99]

But they managed to pull their way down to 14 feet, feet towards the sky hanging on the other side, across from us.

These guys hung with us and wasted part of their dive, because that one person who refused to yield, or move to the other side of the line, caused them to think they were still with their group. Even if that person had move to the side the other divers would probably made it to their group.

Was there some reason you couldn't move over to the same side as the inverted diver, or above him, or below him, thereby allowing the others to descend past you?

 

[Lil' Irish Temper]

Was there some reason you couldn't move over to the same side as the inverted diver, or above him, or below him, thereby allowing the others to descend past you?

So what your telling me is, if you and 6 other divers in your group are doing your hang, you are going to move your whole group up, down, and around because of one screwed up diver who is making bad decisions?

Your willing to take the chance of getting someone bent for this guy who just got in the water? Your a braver person then me, because I wouldn't.

I think trying that would cause even more of a cluster. Just my opinion though.

 

[Wristshot]

. . . because of one screwed up diver who is making bad decisions?

Your willing to take the chance of getting someone bent . . .

Interesting. I think I know what you mean, but I suspect it may have come out with an unintended harshness; not sure.

On my first dive on the Speigel Grove, hanging at about 15 feet, two other divers approached from below, one experienced diver, one newbie buddy. (We had met earlier on the boat but that was not important) I glanced at the console of the newbie and he was in the red for air pressure. (He was taken on an "advanced" trust-me dive by a friend, but that is a different rant / thread) I moved aside, and allowed them to pass us on the line if they wanted to.

I was not going to "risk" myself or my buddy by surfacing "prematurely". Likewise I was not going to endanger the newbie (or any diver) by blocking his path. However, it was still up to him and his buddy to determine what ascent was safe for them. (I did hold onto my "octo" in case he needed to share air in a hurry) Not looking for accolades, just relating a perspective.

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It would seem to me that the divers coming up should have the "right of way" since they are nitrogen loaded and lower on air. However, even on the road not everyone respects the "right of way". There was a TV commercial here many years ago about a car crash where the driver was "right - - Dead right".

I think that a diver's first responsibility is for the safety of himself and his buddy (or her). Second to that would be the safety of other divers. If moving your group up or down to accomodate another group would endanger your group, then I am with you on staying steadfast. If moving aside would simply be a small inconvenience for your group to accomodate some others, then I consider it a small deposit in the Kharma Bank. Not all others would agree.

Just because they are making bad decisions is no excuse to treat them badly. Well not TOO badly.

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LIT - In the situation you described, I would have probably taken my "group" and gotten out of the way of the obviously inexperienced group. Once they were past we could have reattached for the rest of the SS. But again, that's just me.

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As a side note, it sounds like the other group of divers was not real experienced / knowledgeable. If three of them came back up with you after hanging at 15 feet for 3 minutes, then that would be an indicator of sorts.

I would probably have had a hard time not making fun of them, but only because I can be a real ***** on occasion. (If they came up with you thinking that you were part of their group thumbing the dive early, I might be gentle. If they were just idiots, I would probably ask them what they were thinking, and suggest that perhaps they could use some more training.)

Just some random thoughts,


Wristshot

 

[Lil' Irish Temper]

As for the unintended harshness - I do apolgize to everyone -It was not meant to come out that way.

I still screw up with the best of them.

 

[miketsp]

Dion I was diving with a former student a couple of weeks ago. Fins were kicking up the bottom. I just got their attention and pointed down. Many just don't realize it.

There's a more complete version of the signal:
Point at divers fins. then make circle with right hand while thrusting left index finger into hole made by right hand followed by pointing at the bottom. Means Hey you jerk, stop kicking up the F'ing bottom!

 

[ibnygator]

No one has mentioned it, but I think there is an assumption here of being in a current too strong to be able to release the line and stay close to it. Whenever I can, I practice free ascents and descents without touching the line, but just using it as a visual reference. This can make for some great entertainment sitting back and watching the traffic.

Obviously, with medium to strong current this is not practical and divers have to make their way past each other on the line. Personally, I'll do whatever I can to get out of someone's way so that I can get back to my hang. It shouldn't require a great change in depth to swing to the other side of the line or spread your hands apart so that someone could maneuver around you.

That said, I too have seen some really inconsiderate people on ascent/descent lines that seemed completely oblivious to anyone else's concerns.