diving at age 10 ?

[The Iceni]

I once bubbled...
. . . Some drivers might wish to service their own cars (or regulators) but are prevented from attending the necessary courses for the same reasons you describe. In addition each manufacturer has his own special tools. . .

I added "regulators" to guage your reaction Genesis. I'm very pleased to see you did not take the bait.

Indeed teaching scuba is not Rocket Science and people can be taught to dive withount fullly understanding the infinite details of the sciences involved, just as they can be taugh to drive safely, even if they do not understand the very basics of the workings of the internal combustion engine or change a wheel. Couples have divorced as a result of the (unqualified) husband trying to teach his wife to drive. My mother did not pass her test until I was well into my thirties. I still hate being driven by her (which, thankfully, is not often)!

I always had my regulators serviced professionally, even though I consider I may be more than capable of doing it myself:- One of the first things the police asked following my accident was when and who performed the last service on it. The implication being, if the equipment was at fault and I had serviced it (or not), I would have had only myself to blame.

. . and if I had I died my life insurance companies would have had a field day.

 

[Genesis]

if you think that couples have divorced over driving cars, you should see the wars over driving (and docking) BOATS!

I've been witness to some near-murders around the docks.... some people are just wound too tight.

I service my own stuff. Why? Because I've paid way too much money over the years for substandard service, and have learned one thing above all - that I'm the one who cares most about whether its done right.

The list of things that other, "qualified" people have done for me for money - all by "certified", "qualified" and "licensed" folks, that could have led to someone being hurt or killed, is long and distinguished. The most serious was the licensed electrician who left the ground off on the feed to my DOCK last spring (could have EASILY killed someone); that's hardly the only one though.

I'm fortunate in that I understand how things should be, and frequently check up on people even when I pay them. Otherwise, it could have been zzzzzzaaaaaapppp!

I don't consider even "licensure" an assurance of quality or even the following of standards - it just means that someone paid someone else a fee.

Unfortunately.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Genesis once bubbled...

The list of things that other, "qualified" people have done for me for money - all by "certified", "qualified" and "licensed" folks, that could have led to someone being hurt or killed, is long and distinguished. The most serious was the licensed electrician who left the ground off on the feed to my DOCK last spring (could have EASILY killed someone); that's hardly the only one though.

I'm fortunate in that I understand how things should be, and frequently check up on people even when I pay them. Otherwise, it could have been zzzzzzaaaaaapppp!

Dive instructors, spear fishermen, other divers, childrens protective services and now electricians. Do you get along with anyone?

There's a medical term for people who believe that the entire world is out to get them.

Perhaps you'd get better service if you just lightened up a little bit???

 

[PGL]

... kick into the discussion at this late stage, when the Board's own jury has declared me guilty beyond any reasonable doubt ?...


As the original poster of this thread, I am delighted to see how far it's come from it's original first squeak. May my kids go as far --including in their diving careers, which are now proceeding under the good auspices of PADI-- (I get headaches over the way the teaching material is organised, but hey, who am I to judge...)

I thank Genesis for his defense of people's right to choose. I'll admit under everybody else's pressure he is starting to sound slightly paranoid, but who wouldn't : this scuba teaching issue is just so entrenched in self-righteousness !!

Genesis, forgive me for associating you with the likes of me --a dangerous potential child killer, who earned the following comment from our friend MikeFerrara

It is clear that the original poster of this thread as well as some others don't even begin to grasp the magnitude of the risk that existed here.

Please don't try this stuff at home kids. The dive industry with all it's ills has made it very low risk to visit the underwater world even if it hasen't been so good to the reefs. Much design, experience and thought has gone into deciding what could be left out in the interest of sales without getting too many killed. No thought, experience or training went into the actions of our poster. He was just lucky. I hope he doesn't try it again because there is a limit to luck.

Of course, being incapable of thought, devoid of experience or training, I feel very much unworthy of participating in this debate, but in choosing to extend it beyond the specific issues of diving, Genesis is raising points which are I believe highly relevant and important. In my extremely humble opinion the diving community appears to have crossed certain lines better left uncrossed in terms of wanting to control others behaviour and freedom...

As for luck, I think I've tested mine in many ways, perhaps one or two too many, but still expect my kids to do the same, behind my back, when I'm asleep, and when I'm gone for good : all I can hope is they'll have developed their own sense for 'survival' (what was this thing again about the drysuit, Genesis ?), a sense for obtaining relevant knowledge and then applying it to their own situation, with their own judgement --not blindly going by the book...

AArghhh, here I go having my own little suffocation incident : quick, back to the surface and try some positive buoyancy for a cure..........Philip

 

[MikeS]

PGL,

My comments were not meant to assign quilt, and while I don’t know Mike Ferrara motives for certain, I suspect neither were his. There are many people reading this board and I thought it important for them to know that what you did is not considered a good choice by many if not the majority of divers.

In this situation, the paramount issue should be the safety of your children not the right to choose. IMHO the thread got way off track into discussing if you should have the right to do irresponsible things rather than discussing if what you did was dangerous and therefore irresponsible.

I am glad that you have reevaluated the situation and your kids are going through a certification program. While none of the SCUBA training agencies is perfect, all of them have invested a lot in programs intended to keep divers safe, if for no other reason than to protect their own selfish interests. IMHO getting the training is the prudent and responsible thing to do.

So perhaps as you posted earlier, this saga will have a “happy ending.”

Mike

 

[The Iceni]

PGL once bubbled...
... kick into the discussion at this late stage, when the Board's own jury has declared me guilty beyond any reasonable doubt ?........Philip

Hi Phillip,

Far from it. If any of the moderators on this forum believed what you had to say was reckless we would have pulled the whole thread. I became involved when things appeared to be getting out of control and instead of reasoned educational debate we had name-calling and labelling. It had become a shouting match.

We have left the thread open because it is an important subject and, I for one, hope you take the comments by MF, MS DocVikingo (and myself) in the way they were intended;- Not as criticism but well-meant advice. DrV is well versed in the medicolegal scene.

I like to think we are nice people here.

Safe and enjoyable diving - and parenting! (wait till they are teenagers!)

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Absolutely not. It seemed that you might not appreciate the risk in which you were placing the kids. The fact that you were asking showed that you were concerned.

Once the kids are certified, you can all enjoy the sport safely. At a minimum, you'll know that you took the steps you need to in order to minimize risk.

 

[reubencahn]

Attached is an article I was directed to after my 10 year old had already begun his certification course.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lpt/kids.htm

It certainly gave me pause. But I decided to go ahead. My son had been snorkeling since he was 4 and is probably more comfortable in the water than out. He easily picked up the required knowledge and his physical capabilities are more than adequate. My biggest concern is, as with most children, he is somewhat fearless. (Of course, during my first few years of diving I was equally fearless, and, at least once, put myself in a dangerous situation.) I really think this is a huge concern with kids diving. However, having said this, my son has shown real prudence, aborting dives when he was uncomfortable and refusing to dive with anyone other than me, that is, my wife who is actually more experienced than I am.

 

[Genesis]

And by the same rubric that the gentleman in that presentation has we'd never let a kid go on Outward Bound, snow ski, waterkski or even ride a bike.

I find the "one size fits all" evaluation of children to be severely deficient in its analysis. Certainly, there are kids who are not mentally fit to dive. Certainly, however, there are also adults who are not mentally fit to dive, and I'm sure that anyone who has been doing this for more than a week has seen a few of them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

PGL once bubbled...
... kick into the discussion at this late stage, when the Board's own jury has declared me guilty beyond any reasonable doubt ?...



...<snip>...


Of course, being incapable of thought, devoid of experience or training, I feel very much unworthy of participating in this debate, but in choosing to extend it beyond the specific issues of diving, Genesis is raising points which are I believe highly relevant and important. In my extremely humble opinion the diving community appears to have crossed certain lines better left uncrossed in terms of wanting to control others behaviour and freedom...

Philip,

I have no desire to make decisions for you or interfere with your freedoms or choices. However, based on everything I know about diving and dive instruction my opinion is that what you did was dangerous.

I personally don't care if one choses to teach without being trained by an agency to do so. I don't care if the industry certifies 10 year olds to dive. Even so, the comments I made were an honest and accurate communication of my opinion. If a "certified instructor" did things as you did I would disagree just as strongly. In most places there is no law requiring certification to dive or preventing anyone from teaching diving in any way they chose. Feel free to excersize those freedoms. Feel free to take people buddy breathing down to 30 ft (or whatever it was). Just realize that without having first developed relevant skills in shallow water that if you let go of them they may surface spitting out their lungs.