diving at age 10 ?

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
First, "certification" as an instructor does not certify competence. Is that not the entire point of all the endless debates over the various RTSC-aligned agencies and "drooping expectations"? (Some would say "dog-dead expectations"! )

Actually, the card means that the instructor was trained and assessed as competant as defined by current industry standards and methods at the time of certification. While this doesn't garantee they are good it does say that they knew what they were doing on the day they got the card. For instance they are tought to start the student out with learning some basics in shallow water as apposed to sharing air at 30 ft with no equipment of their own. If a card holding instructor did this they would have no defense because the act is against all existing standards. Following those standards is also a condition of insurance coverage. After pulling a stunt like this and getting cought they would have no insurance. Everyone else knows this is bad and if he had the same training he would know it also. Everyone with an instructors card knows it for certain.

In fact, all "certification" to instruct appears to actually certify is that someone has liability insurance so if you sue them they've got someone to hide behind! In some ways that could actually be bad - if you're the one injured and the one doing the instructing has significant assets!

Again being certified says they were trained in methods seen as acceptable by the industry.

The general premise here is that nobody other than someone with a "badge" (or card - call it what you will) can teach you something about diving.

That is not the premis at all. One can read a book and relay info to you and you might say they tought you something. Teaching someone "something" about diving is far different than controling them in the water during their first scuba experience or their first time on a rebreather or the first time below 200 ft ect.

That premise is clearly false.

In fact, I have learned more about diving from actually doing it with other people who are more skilled than I, "just doing it", and contemplating various aspects of diving than I have learned from anyone with a "badge" or "card".

This should not surprise, and I'm willing to bet its no different for anyone who actually dives!

Formal training only gets you to the point where it's safe for you to go out and learn. That said I dove for years under the guidence of a OW certified family member. When I finally took a class I was amazed to find out what could happen if you held your breath. He never told me that. He certainly never had me practice skills in shallow water that reinforced the concept before we went spear fishing.

What the "card" gives you is a shield from lawsuits (ok, from SUCCESSFUL lawsuits!) and an air of legitimacy when something goes wrong.

Let's face it - anyone who actually does dive knows the first and foremost rule - never hold your breath. Is it hard to communicate that? No. Is an instructor in the water with six students more likely to be able to stop someone who does the "spit, hold and shoot up" routine than a one-on-one situation with someone you know and trust - not someone you hired? No.

YES. Not only is a trained instructor more likely to STOP the diver they are more likely to use methods that prevent it from ever happening in the first place. Communicating the "Don't hold your breath"rule and training someone not to are vastly different things.

Can you die learning to dive? Yes. Is the "lawsuit insurance" worth something? Yes. Is the card worth something? Absolutely - you'll have trouble renting gear or getting tanks filled without it.

Does any of the above guarantee no problems? Absolutely NOT!

While I understand the general rubric of "keeping it in the family" of "certified instructors", this board is FILLED with horror stories about poor instructors and their progeny in the water.

Let's look at this honestly, instead of parroting agency lines which we have already shown through the dialogue here are at best misleading.

Yes there are bad instructors and , IMO, the standards need much work. However, letting people teach diving with no training in dive instruction is the EXACT OPOSITE of a solution.

It is clear that the original poster of this thread as well as some others don't even begin to grasp the magnitude of the risk that existed here.

Please don't try this stuff at home kids. The dive industry with all it's ills has made it very low risk to visit the underwater world even if it hasen't been so good to the reefs. Much design, experience and thought has gone into deciding what could be left out in the interest of sales without getting too many killed. No thought, experience or training went into the actions of our poster. He was just lucky. I hope he doesn't try it again because there is a limit to luck.

 

[Genesis]

friend or relative loaned them gear. When I question them, it is rare that such a warning was issued. It is rare that the friend or relative was close enough to prevent them from bolting. I've never heard from anyone who was introduced to diving by a friend or relative who established signals to remind them not to hold their breath or who introduced SCUBA in a nonthreatening manner.

I know many people who learned to dive in a "non-professional" way. They are all still here. All that I have dove with later got cards simply due to being unable to get fills without them. None died between (1) and (2), and most have commented that they felt the "card" was nothing more than a "tax", given their already considerable experience.

Is it possible for an OW or AOW or even a rescue certified diver to introduce SCUBA in a safe manner? Yes. Is it likely? No.

Disagree.

I believe that it is likely that such a person would introduce it in a safe manner. When it comes to someone with a close personal relationship, I would not only expect that, but I suspect their personal knowledge of the "student" would be an even greater benefit in terms of being able to handle anything that might come up underwater.

I do think a jury would believe a diver (who should know better) who allows a non certified person to use their gear or breath from their octopus was being negligent. I would agree with that jury.

I would not, if it was demonstrated that the person doing the breathing or using the gear was competent to make that decision.

BTW, you can buy gear online without showing anyone a card. You can buy a compressor too, and fill your own tanks without a card. There is literally nothing stopping you from doing any of this.

Do you believe it is a good idea for divers, who are not instructors, to loan gear to non divers or to let them breathe off their octopus?

Define "non-divers"!

I believe that adults are competent to make their own informed decisions. This includes decisions that might be dangerous to their health. If I did not believe this, I would support banning diving, motorcycle riding, swimming on a beach, swimming in a pool, cleaning the gutters on your roof, fishing offshore and riding a bicycle.

I do not believe that acts between consenting, competent adults are properly the subject of regulation or "lawsuits". I do recognize that many in society feel differently, and that some such conduct can indeed get you in trouble, including those who profit immensely from the pressing of such suits. Most of those people have the belief that people do not have the right to self-determination and self-assessment of risk.

I reject this position out-of-hand as the antithesis of self-determination.

This is not limited to diving; in fact, diving is the least of these issues. As one of many examples I believe that helmet laws for motorcycle riders are likewise an outrage - for the same reason.

What amazes me is how many people are so happy to define such "requirements" for others, but reject them out of hand when they would be applied to some conduct they want to engage in.

 

[Genesis]

No thought, experience or training went into the actions of our poster.

You simply do not know that.

Its easy to take cheap shots, but Dr. Paul has already edited them out once.

Does it always have to degenerate to thus? That is what got my FIRST set of postings going on this topic.

Mike, that comment is out of line.

 

[The Iceni]

Genesis once bubbled...
The general premise here is that nobody other than someone with a "badge" (or card - call it what you will) can teach you (something) about diving.

That premise is clearly false.

Hi Genesis,

I see the subject of this thread has changed!

While I agree with your statement the courts may not. As a doctor I would like to feel that medical students are taught by doctors, at least for the majority of their course. Certainly, I consider senior doctors alone should decide whether a candidate is suitable to qualify as a doctor.

You also posted

I believe that it is likely that such a person would introduce it in a safe manner. When it comes to someone with a close personal relationship, I would not only expect that, but I suspect their personal knowledge of the "student" would be an even greater benefit in terms of being able to handle anything that might come up underwater

In no way can I have a detached professional relationship with any one my relatives. It is a very unwise doctor who treats his family. Things do go wrong and we all make mistakes. For instance, how do you think I could live with myself if I had negligently treated my wife and she died, simply because, subconsciously, I did not want her to have that obvious diagnosis.

Is that not a fair analogy?

The industry standard is a recognised standard and, in the main, it seems to work.

 

[Genesis]

In no way can I have a detached professional relationship with any one my relatives. It is a very unwise doctor who treats his family. Things do go wrong and we all make mistakes. For instance, how do you think I could live with myself if I had negligently treated my wife and she died, simply because, subconsciously, I did not want her to have that obvious diagnosis.

Is that not a fair analogy?

The industry standard is a recognised standard and, in the main, it seems to work.

A fair analogy, that is.

I am not, by the way, advocating that people ignore formal training. However, I am also not looking at diving as something that is "almost, and oughta be" regulated as part of a formal state licensure procedure.

Paul, this is not an entirely-isolated issue. I cannot, for example, take a "gas blender" course. Why? I am not working for a shop. The agencies I have contacted have all refused unless I am employed by a shop that blends gas! This is a blatent attempt to protect a part of the trade, even though I might very well desire to take such a class - for my own personal knowledge!

Thankfully, I understand the issues involved in dealing with HP gasses, as I have done so before for a number of them, including Helium and Oxygen, in other types of work. Therefore, I am unlikely to blow myself up, and I fully intend to blend my own gas.

What really is going on here?

I believe there is a very real attempt among some in the diving industry to move "beyond" the "voluntary" certification system we have today. Some of those moves might make it illegal for me to get in my own boat and go diving!

As my evidence for this I cite the recent attempt to do exactly that by PADI's Israeli "instructional director", who gave exactly such a speech to people in their government. His position? That all divers should either hold a professional (e.g. at least DM) rating OR be accompanied by someone who does at all times. Note that PADI hasn't exactly disavowed that position either - despite making "private" comments to many (myself included) that they didn't believe in this. Uh huh - and I'm the tooth fairy.

Now is this just paranoia? I don't think so.

Diving has not, until recently, been one of these "go buy your card" sports. It was for most of its history something that was taught by one person who did it to another who wanted to.

There are people who want more "formal" control over diving, with some of the most zealous appearing to be the "DIR"-style crowd.

Then there are people like me who think that this is a matter of personal responsibility. For example, I refused to take a drysuit course because I could not find someone that taught it in a way that I believed was safe (all the agencies wanted to teach me to use the suit as a BC.)

So, instead, I taught myself to use it.

I'm still here.

Could I have taught myself to dive - perhaps with the help of a friend who already did? Sure. I didn't learn anything physiologically or about "protocol" that was worth the course fee. It was a tax.

Should you have that choice to pay the tax? Yes. Do I think that most people are well-served by paying the tax? Yes.

Do I think that it should be required to pay the tax, and that the card be a license?

NO!

 

[The Iceni]

Genesis once bubbled...
I cannot, for example, take a "gas blender" course. Why? I am not working for a shop. The agencies I have contacted have all refused unless I am employed by a shop that blends gas! This is a blatent attempt to protect a part of the trade, even though I might very well desire to take such a class - for my own personal knowledge!

Genesis, I you've changed the subject yet again!

I agree that a dry suit is not a buoyancy compensator and it is not designed as such. It is an environmental suit with a powerful source of unwanted variable buoyancy, and can contain in excess of 10 litres of excess gas which has only one slowish way out; the dump. I experienced a very steep learning curve when I started to dive dry. When I got the trim sorted I could effectively forget about the buoyancy in my dry suit as this was handled superbly by the autodump.

Are you certain all the agencies teach their students to use the drysuit for buoyancy? The BSAC most certainly does not. To my mind it is unnecessary task loading for a diver to have more than one source of variable buoyancy when not necessary. If rebreather divers use their suits as a BC they have three sources of buoyancy to control!

I am not employed by a shop. I am not even an instructor but I completed the IANTD blender's couse some time ago, and very useful it was too! If what you say is true this serves to highlight the differences between the way the sport is organised in the UK and elsewhere. What you describe can, indeed, only be described as protectionism. This is widespread in the commercial setting, particularly in the motor trade.

Some drivers might wish to service their own cars (or regulators) but are prevented from attending the necessary courses for the same reasons you describe. In addition each manufacturer has his own special tools and computer diagnostic software. So instead of spending a Saturday morning fixing your own car (or regulator) it must be booked in the the local franchisee, who will need it for the whole day. A courtesy car is provided but, of course, this is reflected in the greatly inflated costs.

I am certain that many technical divers blend their own mixes. I, for one, preferred to do just that so I was in full control of what was going into my tanks. In addition it was so much convenient and quicker. (I was lucky in having a good relationship with my local shop.)

Even if divers do not have access to the necessary gasses I see no reason why they should not have access to education since it must improve safety.

Knowledge is power (and profit). ut:

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Dr Paul Thomas once bubbled...
Genesis, I you've changed the subject yet again!

snip

I am not employed by a shop. I am not even an instructor but I completed the IANTD blender's couse some time ago, and very useful it was too! If what you say is true this serves to highlight the differences between the way the sport is organised in the UK and elsewhere. What you describe can, indeed, only be described as protectionism. This is widespread in the commercial setting, particularly in the motor trade.

Respectfully, don't believe everything you read.

There are no such restrictions in the States. At least two shops in my general area, neither of which is my LDS, offer blender courses. One advertises it on their website! I truly doubt that this ad is directed towards employees only as, well, most shops are small enough that they can do that by word of mouth.

My LDS doesn't have a Blender instructor on staff, so we brought one in to teach it. We offered it to anyone who could pay.

A short review of the posts in this thread, and others, offers a far more compelling reason for the lack of course availability. Who'd want to teach the course?:wacko:

 

[The Iceni]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...
Respectfully, don't believe everything you read.

Hi NEW.

I most certainly don't.

Dive schools profit by offering various courses and I am sure Genesis could find a course if he wanted, although he might need to travel some distance.

One important point in my post was

I was lucky in having a good relationship with my local shop.

I cultivated this by acknowledging my own, considerable, limitations and most importantly by not trying to teach the instructors how to do their jobs.

 

[Genesis]

Are you certain all the agencies teach their students to use the drysuit for buoyancy? The BSAC most certainly does not. To my mind it is unnecessary task loading for a diver to have more than one source of variable buoyancy when not necessary. If rebreather divers use their suits as a BC they have three sources of buoyancy to control!

All except, apparently GUE (which doesn't teach a "drysuit class") do indeed.

I interviewed a number of prospective instructors on this specific point, and discussed the matter with them.

All said that the standards of their particular agency required teaching it this way, although they acknowledged that there were potentially serious problems with doing so from their personal point of view.

I have not been anywhere near as dilligent in my interviewing of the blender class offerors (there are a lot fewer of them, as you might imagine) but the published standards of the agencies involved typically list as a "pre-req" employment with a dive shop - either directly or, when you call them, indirectly.

If the training is available without same, it'll end up as part of my next trip into other parts of the state along with some diving If this is a "local phenom" I'll accept that - there are all kinds of things that are (like the "drysuit as BC" thing), but that may have something to do with the agencies represented by shops within a couple-hour drive of here (NAUI, SSI and of course the 900lb Gorilla, PADI/DSAT.) I do live in a bit of an "odd" part of the world here in regards to Scuba - that much I've determined over the last year or so.

Finally, I don't think this is "changing the subject", per-se. Its all part of the same piece; the idea that "instructors cards = good" and "lack of those cards = bad".

(BTW, don't bet on not being able to get data on the various automotive systems and codes without being a dealershop monkey. There are a number of aftermarket sources, and the car manufacturers WILL sell you shop manuals. The "computer diagnostic" tools are neither expensive nor, for most situations, necessary - you can actually read OBD codes with nothing more than a test light!)

I've taught myself how to do a lot of things over my life - things that could have killed me easily if mishandled. One of the more "critical" ones include diesel engine maintenance and repair (in my boat) - if you think about it, that's high-pressure fluid systems (injection pumps/injectors/etc - with a flammable fluid!), high-kinetic energy systems (the entire engine), applied thermodynamics (just leave the exhaust blankets off and you'll find out!) and dozens more, all rolled into one. I rebuilt the engine in a car when I was 16 with no formal instruction either.

This stuff (diving and its associated physics and physiological aspects) isn't rocket science Dr. Paul, as I'm sure you and many others here understand. That you can "learn to dive" in four days where your instructor is a just-graduated-high-school kid who likely does not understand any of the physics or physiological issues beyond being able to parrot ITC material pretty much makes that clear.

This is generally a good thing, 'cause otherwise diving would be far less available than it is!

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Genesis must have access to different websites and publications than those available to the rest of the world wide web.

TDI Nitrox Blender Course Outline

TDI Advanced Gas Blender Course Outline

None of them seem to say anything about being a shop employee in order to take the class. Most curious.

Even more curious is that there are two facilities within a few hours drive that will teach the course. One is in Ocala, while the other is in High Springs. Of course, since Genesis lives in Niceville, Florida, it might be closer to go to Alabama.

Turning our attention to drysuits, we look to SDI's Dry Suit Course.

SDI Dry Suit Diver Course

Note with fascination Section 10.8, entitled Approved Outline. More specifically, Section 10.8(5)(C), which provides that part of the course shall include instruction on Buoyancy Control shall include instructions that "Dry Suit is not substitute for proper BCD."

I can't access PADI's course requirements online, but I can assure you that we do not teach the use of the drysuit as a buoyancy control device. We teach that divers should keep enough gas in the suit to prevent a suit squeeze, and no more.

Oh, well.