Diving Accident, Self-Responsibility and Balance

[T.C.]

dffff

 

[TONY CHANEY]

It kinda changes everything does it not Greenjuice?

---------- Post added February 24th, 2014 at 11:26 PM ----------

dffff

What is that?

 

[Greenjuice]

It kinda changes everything does it not Greenjuice?

Yes it does.

I'll step back and let you sort this out with the OP. Then I'll add a comment to my earlier post.

p.s. I briefly caught the post that followed mine. It has been edited, but I think others may be picking up your lead and then respectfully stepping back too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Redshift]

I would say that what Thea felt on the surface was solely brought about by panic. When she panicked, she was breathing so fast it caused rapid shallow breathing (hyperventilation). Despite what most think, this does not increase the amount of carbon dioxide in the body, it actually reduces the amount of carbon dioxide in the blood.

Hyperventilation is rapid, deep breathing. That reduces the amount of carbon dioxide. Rapid shallow breathing does not. When it's shallow, the air in the lungs is almost not being moved and renovated.

It is hard to be sure from the video but you were not 2'-3' seas, looked like 1' or less to me. The current on the wreck did not look too bad either. The DM with your seemed to be in control and doing the right thing. After seeing this I am much more certain that this was just a panic attack.

I agree. After seeing the video, that seemed quite calm at the surface. And there were people around to help.

No. The video CLEARLY shows that you were thrashing hard. That camera was waving around very, very fast.

I'd like to stress what's been mentioned somewhere before, that maybe taking a camera while not having that much experience, being physically unfit and diving with some current is not the best idea.

They had adequate O2! They did hook it up right! You're just over-complaining and sucked up all the O2.

Several people have said this and gave examples for instance of the small DAN kit. If the oxygen kit they have is not enough to get a diver on oxygen from their dive spots to shore, then it's not adequate!

On a side note, browsing DAN's webstore it appears the smallest unit lasts for around 20min, according to them. And in their description they say "Ideal for shore-based diving and training activities" and "Ideal for environments that are close to emergency response." It's not the case in this kind of diving.

Also, some people mentioned 25l/min. Why and in which situations have you been told to use such high flow and are there studies showing it is better than the 15l/min? I have done training with 2 different agencies and it was always mentioned 15. Also, on a quick search on the internet, I found references to kits that can provide up to 25, but never seen it being recommended in articles about oxygen administration in emergency situations.

 

[gianaameri]

Also, some people mentioned 25l/min. Why and in which situations have you been told to use such high flow and are there studies showing it is better than the 15l/min? I have done training with 2 different agencies and it was always mentioned 15. Also, on a quick search on the internet, I found references to kits that can provide up to 25, but never seen it being recommended in articles about oxygen administration in emergency situations.

Paramedics generally use max. flow in an emergency where the priority is reviving or keeping alive and then stabilising the casualty.

Treatment is another issue, but indeed it is always best to have too much gas than too little and after stabilising Thea it may have been prudent (she turned blue...) till she was medically assessed to keep her on O2 on a lower flow setting (but none was available for this).

---------- Post added February 25th, 2014 at 05:07 AM ----------

Thea, a lot has been said and several questions / suggestions have came up during this thread. Please sit back and take in the good and weed out the bad advise. Question? Were you wearing a Pilot BC, a red weight belt and using SP regs. (Please respond as this is going somewhere...trust me). Take care Tony Chaney

The red belt seems to have been dropped at minute 1:42 of Thea's video and before that it appears to be loose (opened to be released).

As the color and brand seems to be inconsequential to the specific incident, where are you going with your line of questioning (I don't get it)?

---------- Post added February 25th, 2014 at 05:15 AM ----------

But, she does *some* cave diving...

And she advocates "simply following the rules, training and common sense", yet dove for ~8 years without training; has done caves without the proper training (or common sense), and she claims to be "ultra safety aware"?!?


I know what Wookie said; calm down, have a drink. I think I'll start with...WHISKEY...then I'll be happy enough to dance; maybe a TANGO or a FOXTROT...

Dive Centers in many parts of the world take divers into overhead environments (wrecks, caves...) against the rules of the certification agencies to which they are affiliated.

It should be of surprise to no one that Thea on her holidays followed the DM/Guide/Instructor into overhead (on this dive and maybe others including in caves).

It is rather common.

Less common is the fact which she relays that the Dive Center in this incident did not appear to buddy-up the divers for this dive that day.

That I think is a breach of rules and common sense for ordinary recreational guided dives (or, hypothesis, not fact, she did not listen to the de-briefing and did not acknowledge having been assigned a buddy by the DM???).

 

[Freewillow]

I am irritable and angry and shocked and... Just in disbelief that this perfect vacation almost, and I mean seriously almost, ended in my death.

My videos show the surge tossing us around after we reached the wreck. I had some trouble with my weight belt slipping, and had to fuss with that a bit. I remember being unable to hover to get a decent pic of anything. I had my flash light, and was and was checking out nooks and crannies, but the surge was just... too swift to stabilize long enough to really get a look at anything.

It is likely, looking back, I think I was exerting myself more than I realized. . Between getting that damn weight belt right and fighting the surge, I was likely getting winded.

, the surge grabbed me and dragged me up and away. Swimming hard, I would go forward two feet, then get pulled back ten feet.

And suddenly, I was tossed to the surface and all hell broke loose.

. 2-3 foot waves were washing over me, at some point,

I topped a wave and saw the boat looking smaller than it should have been.

, shouting "help!"

And I was panting. My breathing was SO hard and SO shallow, I couldn't get my breath. I dropped my weight belt, trying to calm myself, "never panic, never panic" I chanted to myself.

He told me to inflate my BCD, but by this point, I was disoriented,

. I remember he said "keep your reg in", I told him I can't breath.

I remember, deep in my head, that I knew I was dieing.

Alll signs are there to show how you ended up in panick at the surface.

The "only" thing that I, as an operator would not have done, is to have anybody dive in current and surge on a wreck at only 9 meters. Why? No fun, even for experienced divers.

When you have surge, or current do not fight it! A surge may push you 10/15 feet away, but will bring you back instantly to the same place a few seconds later, so do not fight with it. When you are at the surface , keep you regulator in your month and inflate your BCD before you think about dropping your weights. I do not understand people that said that to drop your weight is what saved your life. Maybe, if you are overweighted and have a faulty BCD, but apparently that was not the case.

Finally, stop calling on Doctors that tells you that a panick attack cannot increase your blood pressure and that shallow breathing cannot drop your oxygen saturation down to 85%.

Panick attacks can happen to anyone, so don't feel bad about it. As other said, consult if necessary but choose to dive with a buddy that you are confortable with. And do not exercice underwater, especially at your age, weight and physical condition. I am older that you are and what I love underwater is just to float, to enjoy that sense of non-gravity.

I wish you happy diving in the future.

 

[Thea Strassburg]

I am thinking that some of my perceptions were exagerated because of fear and like of O2. In the video, I was not thrashing around, my husband, who was on the boat, confirmed that. Remember, the camera was on my arm. I think I lifted my head a couple of times to look back and see how close we were to the boat.
I remember, for a split second, as the DM swam up, reaching for his jacket. The moment I touched it I yanked my arm back. In my former career, we had several near drowning victims come through the ER because they had attempted to assist a panicked swimmer and were almost killed themselves.
I think I grabbed at my reg, too. That accounts for the movement as well. But please, I have no reason to make stuff up. At not time did I thrash my body. Thank you for your time and thoughts.

---------- Post added February 25th, 2014 at 07:18 AM ----------

No, I did not panic. I had an independent medical event underwater, and did not realize it. I was dehydrated (my fault), smoke (my fault) was hyperventilating and my bronchial tubes spasmed as I was coming out of the swim through. It was an internal, independant event. I had a blast on the dive.

My weight belt had 18 pounds, and kept slipping to one side. Three times or so, I had to stop and twist my body into it so I was balanced. Total pain, but at no time was I afraid until my lungs locked up. THAT"S when I started to panic. Thank you for your time and thoughts.

---------- Post added February 25th, 2014 at 07:41 AM ----------

T.C., I have been listening. I understand now that the DM's and the other diver did everything they were supposed to and saved my life. Of course the boat DM had to stay with the boat, for the safety of the diver still in the water. The DM in the water with us was by my side in seconds, I will be grateful to him for the rest of my life.
My husband and I talked with him once I was out of the clinic, he can confirm that at no time was my body thrashing. I went completely limp. My camera was on my arm, my arm went into the water, but I knew that staying still was essential. It's just a fact. I have no reason to make **** up.

And like I said, this Board helped me get it, a lot. I did panic, because I couldn't breath, because my lungs seized up. Everyone executed the rescue of a distressed diver perfectly. Except for the damn O2.

I don't understand some of these responses. But but I am learning from each of them. I am thinking that if "Dive Masters are just a marketing tool", then the recreational scuba business is disheartening to say the least.

Are DM's really only present to create the illusion of safety to the general public? Is that true?

---------- Post added February 25th, 2014 at 07:43 AM ----------

My weight belt was pink, like neon style. I had a back inflation BCD. I believe it was an SP reg. But cannot say for sure, my memory is cloudy.

---------- Post added February 25th, 2014 at 07:52 AM ----------

I did one cave dive in Exuma. Went down about 90 feet, went into the cave a little, felt uncomfortable because I knew i was not trained for it, and exited quickly, waiting for the two DM's with me to follow me out.
On this dive, I did listen to the briefing. The DM simply divided us into groups, and said "you 4 (the certified divers) are coming with me". Again, after reading these responses, I realize now the staff did everything right.

I was not panicked. My O2 at the Clinic was 85%, my BP was out of control and my feet were blue. The nurse noted it and later my husband told me. Thanks for your thoughts and time.

---------- Post added February 25th, 2014 at 07:54 AM ----------

I had a panic attack when I realized I couldn't breath because I my lungs just spased shut. I see though from the vid that the waves FELT huge, but your right, they weren't as high as they felt!

---------- Post added February 25th, 2014 at 08:00 AM ----------

The Clinic gave me O2 and a breathing treatment, like they give asthmatics. At 85% O2, I was still able to walk into the clinic. I had some ability to move myself around thank goodness.

I have gotten a real education on the role of DM's here. And to some degree, their thoughts about the rec divers they make their living off of. I will most assuredly be getting more training. I do apologize though, I can see how my original post came off. It was written so soon after the event.

 

[Mike]

Less common is the fact which she relays that the Dive Center in this incident did not appear to buddy-up the divers for this dive that day.

That I think is a breach of rules and common sense for ordinary recreational guided dives (or, hypothesis, not fact, she did not listen to the de-briefing and did not acknowledge having been assigned a buddy by the DM???).

No offense but not only do you seem to think there is a official rule book for dive operators, but you promoting typical misconceptions. Your comments about boats never having their engines running, this comment about breaching a rule that dive masters buddy people up...

When you're certified, you're certified, a dive master is working for tips as a guide, he isn't the boats hired instructor teaching all the divers how to dive. If you have your C card you learned to dive with a buddy. There was no part of the course that I recall that outlined you wait for a dive master to assign you a buddy.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

OK, here we have a diver that smokes and is over weight. Now that same diver is smoking and drinking the night before and I am guessing very little sleep. Let's take our diver with, more than likely, respiratory complications, dehydrated, tired, a little hung over and strap 18 lbs of lead and do a dive in currents. Let's also add an ill fitting weight belt and a video camera. The diver also has no buddy. (OBTW, split fins are not too good in currents) This is starting to sound like a perfect way to get killed or hurt.
So the diver makes it to the wreck, fighting the current as well as the weight belt but still trying to get some good video. At this point our diver is really starting to overwork her cardio / pulmonary systems. But she keeps on going to include going through a swim through. (Thanks God nothing happened to you in the swim through) At this point our diver is very aware that she is in mild to moderate distress and cannot catch her breath. SaO2 is decreasing and PCO2 is building.
Now our diver knows that she has got to get to the surface and is in a fight or flight mode. She makes it to the surface without a safety stop and she is greeted by the boat being far away, she is alone and waves are crashing over her. Now it is full blown panic.
But the situation is really not as it appears to be to our diver. She said that she dropped the weight belt. No she did not! It is still on her until someone else tries to drop it but hangs on for a while and departs around 1:40 in the video. Then things get rather calm on the surface. So I am thinking that when our diver made the decision to get to the surface she still had the wright belt on and the BC was not inflated. Our diver was thinking that surface swells were overtaking her but I think that she was kicking up to the surface, yell for help and go back under. That damn belt that was giving her so much trouble on the bottom is trying to kill you on the surface. The boat was not that far from you. You were not alone. The other divers were very near you and you can see one of them at 28-31 seconds in the video.

Thea, I am very sincere when I say that I am very happy that you made it out without injury or death. It is OK to say that you did panic and a lot of divers would have also. If you don't learn from this you are bound to repeat it. I wish you the best and safe dives. At the very end you did get some good video.

 

[Steve_C]

"Hey, don' fight the ocean, man...." <pause & wide smile> "she bigger dan u!"

Words that would prevent many an accident.