Divers Down watch out!

[instructorkelly]

I actually did my internship with divers down in Cayman Islands and had the pleasure to dive with Jenny. She was very professional and had some of the best briefings I have heard, not only were they informative she also managed to make them entertaining! I would go work for Diver's Down in a heartbeat if they would have me, as they are an awesome dive shop!
1st The best way to avoid problems with equipment rental is simply to purchase your own BCD and set of regulator.
2nd I was thought that if I ever lost my dive buddy, to look for no more than 1 minute and to re surface. Again, if they would of went down together in the first place, they would not have "lost" each others.
3rd As many mentioned, you should always dive within your comfort zone, I'm sure Jenny didn't drag anyone to 115ft
4th Again, air management is the diver's responsibility

All I can recommend for the diver is that he pays extra for a private DM just for himself next time and that he takes the time to review his Open Water manual before diving again. I hope you read through all 6 pages as there is a lot you can learn from this.
As for you claim of only wanting to share your experience, what about some positive sharing. You mentioned diving in Cozumel and it being great. Who was the dive operator, who was your DM, what was so great about the dive?
I'd really like to know as I work in Cozumel

 

[dwatts]

My wife and I were OW certified in the summer of 2007. In July of 2008 we went to Grand Cayman (East End) for a week. While I had the benefit of one additional dive trip (with the guys), my wife only had the certification trip the previous summer.

Knowing that she needed "extra" attention, I assumed the responsibility of finding a dive center that would cater to her new-ness. I should add that I took to scuba very quickly...my wife needed MUCH MORE attention during the [private] class. We both knew that she would need a private DM.

I think whether it's scuba diving, operating a computer, doing yoga, or whatever, it is the individual's responsibility to know their own needs...their own limitations...their own concerns and fears. I know my wife and I knew that she needed extra attention.

When I dove with my wife we scheduled dive trips suitable for her...i.e. - NO WALL DIVES. She and I only dove shallow reef dive. I dove the walls with another buddy that was comfortable with the depth...but not with my wife.

Bottom line: each diver must know their abilities, even as a new diver, and must be responsible for communcation their abilities, limitations, concerns to a dive center. It's your life...not the DM's.

 

[TSandM]

I can see just about every side to everything here.

As a boat owner, I know that the thing about boats is not IF something is going to break down, but simply when. And when is often right before you have to be somewhere important. It's often not the fault of poor maintenance or poor equipment. It's just the nature of things that have to operate in an extremely hostile (salt water) environment. That they were able to get the boat going at all was great; Peter and I just lost two days of diving we had greatly looked forward to on Maui, because the dive op's boat was out of service, and they were unable to get it fixed while we were there. So kudos to the dive op for getting the boat to the dock.

On the other hand, it's not very organized not to have equipment that fits, when sizes have been sent in advance (and assuming they were, and they were accurate). But most people who run dive ops are divers and not businessmen, and they often aren't all that organized. It's annoying.

If the group requested a wall, and got a wall, and the walls are that deep, then the guide was doing what she was asked to do. I may think that taking new divers to 115 feet is inadvisable, but I have come to realize that it is quite commonly done. I went to 130 feet on my 10th dive, in Molokini crater. Of course, I had AOW, which meant I had done one dive to 90 feet before. And my husband and I were escorted by an instructor, and I watched my gas supply obsessively during the dive. It was unwise, and I should have said something when the dive plan was presented, but I figured if the instructor thought it was okay, it was okay. I think a lot of people come out of their OW class with the idea that instructors and DMs are authority figures, and you are to do what they tell you to do. It takes a while to realize they are just divers like you are, with a bit more experience and training, and they make mistakes, too.

With regards to pace, I have had the experience on a number of occasions of having the dive guide move much faster than we wanted to move. My husband takes pictures, and I like little things -- I poke in holes and look under stuff, and often look up and see the guide right at the edge of visibility. In the beginning, it made me anxious and crazy, and I was always trying to keep up. Later, I realized it's MY dive, and I paid for it, and I can do it the way I want. The guide can swim off without me, in which case I'll have to find the boat again, or the guide can realize that we are simply moving more slowly, and wait for us, or come back. The key is that I do not sign up to do a dive with a guide that I would not feel comfortable doing just with a briefing from the boat. The guide is a convenience, and hopefully is someone who will point out some local wildlife I might otherwise have missed. But I can do the dive without him or her.

These divers sound as though they agreed to embark upon a dive they didn't feel comfortable doing by themselves, and then their inexperience and anxiety led them to manage the dive they were doing rather poorly. Buddy awareness and monitoring one's gas are the responsibilities of the individual divers, and having NOTHING to do with the guide. All too often, new divers don't have the skills to keep a buddy team together during descent, or ascent, which are the times when things go wrong. As the OP learned, on descent, one diver may discover he can't equalize, or may have some piece of equipment that turns out not to be working properly, or may (in the case of dry suit divers) have a leak in the suit that requires aborting the dive. If the buddy pair is not together, the other member cannot know about these problems, and both are essentially diving solo.

So there were a couple of issues with the dive op that started the day off poorly, and then some big issues with the divers, having to do with not accepting responsibility for their own dives, and the end result was a bad experience. It's a good story to tell, because there are a lot of good points here, but it doesn't sum up to me to be a strong indictment of the dive operator.

 

[jellyfish123]

I can't beleve how many of you are bashing the op and praising a dive op for lousy service! Shame on anyone for expecting great service (and attention to safety!) for the amount of money they're paying. I wouldn't be happy either about a poorly maintained boat that had a dead battery, causing me to miss dive time and then be rushed, which is how I would feel about a DM racing along the dive, not bothering to slow down and look for anything to point out (part of why I often prefer to dive without a DM). I wouldn't be happy about paying for rental gear that they scrambled to scrounge together and didn't fit. I don't rent, but all rental gear should be maintained, not dragged out of a corner. It didn't seem they took the time to even talk to their divers to find out skill level and dive expectations. But they felt ok to take divers of unknown skill (or known novices had they looked at their paperwork) to 115 feet for 20 minutes. What kind of a crappy profile is that, not only for new divers, but anyone wanting a scenic dive. We all know that unless there is a wreck or something at particular depth, the diving is often better shallower, not to mention longer bottom time. Nope, get 'em in and get 'em out.

Yes, the op made mistakes, but admits inexperience. I guess all of you were perfect divers from the start.

I hope, op, what you have learned from this is that you can't have high expectations for service. You need to always look out for yourself, and your own buddy on all dives, no matter where you are and how long you have been diving.

I am a dive professional and am constantly appaled by the number of operations who are unsafe, unprofessional, disorganized and bored. I am not speaking from personal experience with this op, but I have been diving on Grand Cayman, (as well as many other destinations) and for such a supposed first class dive location I saw much to be desired in dive op quality in general. Time and time again, with novices on board the dive profiles were to the max and involved swim throughs. Nice. Take new divers through an enclosed environment at depth and max out their air. I also witnessed poor safety practices getting on and off boats in rough weather which boats shouldn't really have been out in. It just seemed like a lot of brand new instructors and DMs end up in Grand Cayman, (I have seen ones that act like they were certified yesterday) and others who just seemed bored and tired with all the masses of cruise ship divers. Perhaps all they want are the experienced divers, but let's face it, a mega cruise port like that attracts a lot of newbies, so crowds of beginners is what they need to learn to focus on. Quaility service and safety service should rank higher, and in some places it does. I have experienced it. I'm not talking hand-holding.

 

[Web Monkey]

I can't beleve how many of you are bashing the op and praising a dive op for lousy service! Shame on anyone for expecting great service (and attention to safety!) for the amount of money they're paying. I wouldn't be happy either about a poorly maintained boat that had a dead battery, causing me to miss dive time and then be rushed, which is how I would feel about a DM racing along the dive, not bothering to slow down and look for anything to point out (part of why I often prefer to dive without a DM). I wouldn't be happy about paying for rental gear that they scrambled to scrounge together and didn't fit. I don't rent, but all rental gear should be maintained, not dragged out of a corner.

I used that exact dive op about a week earlier, also from a cruise ship, with two friends and was offered the exact same dives. When I said that one of our divers was very new and would rather do two reef dives instead of a wall and a reef, the DM said "No Problem!" and we had two very nice dives that max'd out around 70'.

Some things are unavoidable (boats break at inconvenient times). And while it's nice to have a bunch of rental equipment available, it's not always possible to have the right amount of everything in every possible size. That's why people are encouraged to buy their own stuff.

Divers are responsible for their own dives. However in this case, I don't blame the OP, I blame the OP's instructor who obviously didn't teach the students to dive within recommended limits and be responsible for their own safety.

Terry

 

[ScubaSteve]

I can't beleve how many of you are bashing the op and praising a dive op for lousy service!

I am fairly certain that if you were to actually read the posts in this thread, there were more people NOT laying blame on the Dive OP rather than Praising them for a job well done. There is a huge difference.

Nope, get 'em in and get 'em out.

This is why I hate DM led dives. Guess what? Anybody that goes into this arrangement (DM led dive) expecting anything better than this "get'em in and get'em out" service is going to be sadly disappointed more often than not. What makes you think that each and every person does not have their own description of what is expected? It is impossible to please everybody and the sooner one accepts that, the sooner life can improve. This is simple reality no matter who likes it or not. There are expections but they are just that.....exceptions.

Yes, the op made mistakes, but admits inexperience. I guess all of you were perfect divers from the start.

I do not recall reading anybody that said they were perfect when they were new divers. The big point that you seem to have missed is that most of us did not make mistakes and then come onto a public forum such as ScubaBoard and try to SLAM the operation for our shortcoming as divers or things that are outside of their direct control. That is what you missed but that is exactly what the OP did.

You need to always look out for yourself, and your own buddy on all dives, no matter where you are and how long you have been diving.

Now that is a value added comment. The more divers that become self reliant, the more happy (and safe) divers we will have.

I am a dive professional and am constantly appaled by the number of operations who are unsafe, unprofessional, disorganized and bored.

I hope as a dive professional, you are the exception spoken about before. But it does not really fair well for you tocome on here and do nothing but praise the OP. Crap happens and people seem way too quick to come onto SB to try and "rally the troops" to turn the world against an operation when the operation really just had another day in business. We do not know what really happened, but I bet you that there is some truth in both sides of the story.

Bottom line is, if the OP had done a better job at presenting his case, people might have sided with him. Instead they came on here and tried to lay all blame for everything onto the Dive Op and the DM. I do not see why they deserve the blame.

JMO.

 

[gypsyjim]

Well said Steve.

Am in a retail business myself. Every one has bad days and any business will make mistakes, no matter how careful and customer oriented they are. Misunderstandings arise, problems pop up that take time and effort to correct. A good business leans over backward to try to correct their mistake and satisfy the customer, even if they lose some money in the process.

When you have to combine your mistake and/or an already bad day with having to deal with a demanding customer who has no senstivity at all to any but their own demands, your day can go south real quick! In my profession we try awfully hard to satisfy our disappointed customer, knowing that satisfied customers are good advertising, while truely dissatisfied customers can wreck reputations overnight.

When, occasionally a selfcentered, me first attitude is combined with a get even outlook on life you have the customer from H#**, that not only can you not placate in any way, you just have to give up and show them the door, and hope your standing amoung your good customers will help you weather the coming storm.

Having experienced all this, I try really hard not to jump to judgement when I read these stories, but wait, sift threw, and read comments from others who may have dealt with the same business, of from the business itself. There are always two side to a story.

 

[--tom--]

I'm going to get slapped for this post, but I am going to do it anyway.

I can't beleve how many of you are bashing the op and praising a dive op for lousy service!

So Jellyfish123, you joined this forum just to say this? Sorry, seems a bit petty to me. Did you read all of the posts, or did you read a couple, skimmed a few & took up the challenge? There were no personal attacks to the OP, just a high pegging of the BS-o-Meter, mixed with a strong dose of reality.

If someone posts maliciously on this forum it is frequently called. Unfortunately, this community (ScubaBoard) would rather be brutally honest than politely deceptive; I really like that. Trust me, I am not exempt from that standard. I have been put in my place a few times.

I posted a contra-opinion to the OP. I used the OP's words to draw a conclusion, later verified by the DM. I didn't bash the OP, even though it was obvious that 1) he abandoned his buddy 2) condemned the DM for helping the buddy back to safety (you know, that safety part you mentioned?) because the OP had to wait 3) didn't listen to the briefing & 4) didn't pay attention to his pressure gauge. The OP had the audacity to blame the DM for this. I didn't say it that way in my post, but it is an accurate account of the OP's contribution to the fiasco. The truly sad part is you didn't catch it for what it was. You defended it as "inexperience". This wasn't inexperience; this was cavalier arrogance. And I am supposed to be ashamed of pointing this out? I don't think so.

As a "professional" you should have noticed that.

BTW, welcome to the Board. If nothing else, it will keep you honest.

 

[instructorkelly]

"I don't rent, but all rental gear should be maintained, not dragged out of a corner. "

Who ever said their equipment isn't perfectly well maintained???? They have more than one location on the island and the equipment isn't all kept at the same place. So because they took the truck and took the time to go pick up the appropriate sizes, you assumed it was dragged out of a corner!!!!!
Get you facts straight.:shocked2:

 

[dpaustex]

Wow, someone posts something, then gets bashed for posting. Come on, folks!!!

Think back to when you were a new diver. My family and I were brand new, and we went to the Keys a couple of months after getting our Open Water cert. I actually drove around to every dive operator and spoke to them. I told each we were brand new, etc, etc. Well, after being assured we would be fine, we went out with an operator (their office was a portable building) that told us all the right things and would put a DM in the water, mainly to watch my youngest daughter. Long story short, the DM came up without my daughter, and had no clue where she was. Turns out the DM was brand new, and had moved here from England only two months before, and the Dive operator certified her.

Now, fast forward. I, too, am a DM. No way would I do what this woman did. Worse, the operator wasn't all that concerned. They had actually combined their two smaller boats onto one larger boat (didn't fill the smaller boats), yet cut the number of DM's, so there were fewer per person (2 for over 30 people).

So, yeah, I get the financial angle just fine, but when you promote, as an operator, having 1 DM per 8 people AND have "assured" new divers they would be "fine", balance that against your whole family coming up without one, and see how that all fits.

So there is responsibility on both sides. When someone tells me they are new, I LISTEN, I ASK what their expectations are. I may suggest a private tour. It is also the DM's responsibility to assess the overall group level, and work to the weakest link theory. New divers, by nature, have a higher consumption rate, and that needs to be taken into account.

Of course, the perceptions by the new divers may be through the lens of a new diver of little experience. It does not make their experience any less of a concern in the overall scenario. I've been lied to by dive operators, simply trying to squeeze as many bodies as possible onto a vessel. I have now countered that by willing to pay extra for a max of 8 divers on a boat. Much nicer.

Buit it does cut both ways. There are people I will never go out with again in the Keys, and there are some I will always frequent. The problem is that DM's also make squat, and it's tough to make a "living". For me, DM was simply to be a better diver. But no way would I ever leave my group - ever.