Diver missing in Ontario

[CDNScubaMoose]

i realize that professional liability stops when the student is out of training, but duty of care never ceases
so even though the diver was done with the course and out of the instructor's hands, the instructor, as well as anyone else like a buddy, arguably still owes a duty of care, in that he should have informed the new diver that this is beyond his experience
perhaps he did, i am not accusing the instructor in any way, just making an argument for what "duty of care" means and how much it extends
if the diver still chose to go ahead despite the advice there is not much more to argue about IMO

Fair points. I wasn't present when this accident occured so although I doubt what I am about to suggest actually played out but I would like to know what some others think. Hypothetically speaking if after the course was completed and the instructor is sitting with the 2 new divers over lunch and these 2 new divers start talking about diving the Barge/Monarch (the dive in question) because they had heard about it from other divers and it sounded like a fun dive to do. If the instructor advises against doing this dive due to their skill level but it becomes clear that the 2 new divers have zero interest in listening to this very sound piece of advice. Should the instructor step up and join the dive as a third buddy for a just in case something goes wrong and perhaps they can help OR should the instructor make one final plea that falls on deaf ears and then head home away from the dive site with fingers crossed? I ask this since although I do my best to drive home the concept of personal responsibility I have heard about past students diving well outside their skill set shortly after their training (without my knowledge). I have been tempted to cut up their c-card and in cases where I get a chance to talk to them face to face the conversation has been heated pretty quick because many of these divers believe they are invicible and it is none of my business what they do after their course.

My understanding for a definition of duty of care is what would a prudently responsible person do in a similar situation. So if it is during a course, "what would a prudently responsible scuba instructor do", or in this particular case, "what would a prudently responsible dive buddy do". The buddy relationship goes both ways so the deceased had a duty of care to his buddies as well and as I stated earlier - this dive site is obviously a challenging one which IMHO any resonabily prudent diver or non-diver for that case could tell.

As has also been mentioned, the diver had just completed his checkout dives so I would think that even if the knowledge and skills presented during the course had only been ingrained in his short term memory that those couple of hours shouldn't have caused him to forget that information. The one major question that I have about this situation is how in the world did a just certified diver forget that he had personal responsibility for choosing an planning his dives mere hours after he had completed his course?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Fair points. I wasn't present when this accident occured so although I doubt what I am about to suggest actually played out but I would like to know what some others think. Hypothetically speaking if after the course was completed and the instructor is sitting with the 2 new divers over lunch and these 2 new divers start talking about diving the Barge/Monarch (the dive in question) because they had heard about it from other divers and it sounded like a fun dive to do. If the instructor advises against doing this dive due to their skill level but it becomes clear that the 2 new divers have zero interest in listening to this very sound piece of advice. Should the instructor step up and join the dive as a third buddy for a just in case something goes wrong and perhaps they can help OR should the instructor make one final plea that falls on deaf ears and then head home away from the dive site with fingers crossed? I ask this since although I do my best to drive home the concept of personal responsibility I have heard about past students diving well outside their skill set shortly after their training (without my knowledge). I have been tempted to cut up their c-card and in cases where I get a chance to talk to them face to face the conversation has been heated pretty quick because many of these divers believe they are invicible and it is none of my business what they do after their course.

My understanding for a definition of duty of care is what would a prudently responsible person do in a similar situation. So if it is during a course, "what would a prudently responsible scuba instructor do", or in this particular case, "what would a prudently responsible dive buddy do". The buddy relationship goes both ways so the deceased had a duty of care to his buddies as well and as I stated earlier - this dive site is obviously a challenging one which IMHO any resonabily prudent diver or non-diver for that case could tell.

As has also been mentioned, the diver had just completed his checkout dives so I would think that even if the knowledge and skills presented during the course had only been ingrained in his short term memory that those couple of hours shouldn't have caused him to forget that information. The one major question that I have about this situation is how in the world did a just certified diver forget that he had personal responsibility for choosing an planning his dives mere hours after he had completed his course?

I think the scenario that you present is a very real possibility in any arena. I am not a lawyer so it does not surprise me when I read your scenario and see a moral dilemma and not a legal one. In today's litigious society we can sue for almost anything. I for one would likely tell the two divers that it was the wrong decision and be on my way. I do not see how duty of care can extend in that scenario because the instructor would not be present when whatever happens, happens.

 

[abnfrog]

Fair points. I wasn't present when this accident occured so although I doubt what I am about to suggest actually played out but I would like to know what some others think. Hypothetically speaking if after the course was completed and the instructor is sitting with the 2 new divers over lunch and these 2 new divers start talking about diving the Barge/Monarch (the dive in question) because they had heard about it from other divers and it sounded like a fun dive to do. If the instructor advises against doing this dive due to their skill level but it becomes clear that the 2 new divers have zero interest in listening to this very sound piece of advice. Should the instructor step up and join the dive as a third buddy for a just in case something goes wrong and perhaps they can help OR should the instructor make one final plea that falls on deaf ears and then head home away from the dive site with fingers crossed? I ask this since although I do my best to drive home the concept of personal responsibility I have heard about past students diving well outside their skill set shortly after their training (without my knowledge). I have been tempted to cut up their c-card and in cases where I get a chance to talk to them face to face the conversation has been heated pretty quick because many of these divers believe they are invicible and it is none of my business what they do after their course.

My understanding for a definition of duty of care is what would a prudently responsible person do in a similar situation. So if it is during a course, "what would a prudently responsible scuba instructor do", or in this particular case, "what would a prudently responsible dive buddy do". The buddy relationship goes both ways so the deceased had a duty of care to his buddies as well and as I stated earlier - this dive site is obviously a challenging one which IMHO any resonabily prudent diver or non-diver for that case could tell.

As has also been mentioned, the diver had just completed his checkout dives so I would think that even if the knowledge and skills presented during the course had only been ingrained in his short term memory that those couple of hours shouldn't have caused him to forget that information. The one major question that I have about this situation is how in the world did a just certified diver forget that he had personal responsibility for choosing an planning his dives mere hours after he had completed his course?

first let me say this is not only a possibillity of happening ......it has ............let me clear somthing up first as a starting point .. i have been declared an exspert witness in the general division in diving accidents .......it is exactly what the op has said duty of care and what a prudunt dive buddy (or instructor would do in a given circumstance) the duty of care of an instructor never stops, but it does diminish. Lets say an instructor teaches an ow course the student takes courses all the way to tri mix diver , then dies of an age , can the original instructor be held responsible for not teaching not to hold your breath ? no .... well the other courses remediated that (of course this is an over simplication) but you get the idea . there is a case right now that will be going to court, that an instructor will be having to exsplain alot of prior bad acts . a diver died in his care and control (or lack of ) he is also being investigated by the agency he taught with . this case maybe the water shed case here in canada that will define how instructors do business.Unfortunatly i cant go into more details but suffice to say all will come out in court . if a instructor or dive buddy see s something really wrong they have a RESPONSIBILITY to say something , but how far can they go ? you can physicaly restrain them ...thats assualt. so do you pack you gear and leave ? maybe , does that absolve you ? ( the court would decide that ) i chose not to be at the dive that the above diver died , because of the instructors prior bad acts , does that absolve me in the courts eyes , even though i had told the other instructor many times he was cutting to many corners .....with witness's ? time will tell ......fwiw