Diver missing - Grand Cayman

[diving4ever]

But speculating and laying blame may cause another to not repeat the mistakes others may have made. That for me is enough to say ok go for it.

I respectfully disagree. Speculation does not make people safer. It makes people *feel* safer, which is not the same thing.
Speculation is an idea or guess of that which IS NOT KNOWN. That is what it means. So rather than guess at who is to blame, why not continue to source all the possible scenarios and talk about the best way to mitigate risk. For instance I find is useful (as a less experienced diver) to hear ways in which I can stay close to my incapacitated buddy in high seas. That is valuable content even if that isn't what actually happened in this scenario.

 

[Mike]

Pretty judgmental there, Mike.

My ex used to disappear on me in a heartbeat. He's supposed to be following me, I turn around to check, and he's gone.


So, Where's my buddy? I don't know. According to you, it's my fault the ex didn't follow the dive plan. Really? :scorned:

I agree with Basking Ridge.

Why would you say it's your fault? Your dive buddy is at fault. I wouldn't dive with that person, you didn't have a dive buddy, you just had somebody who happened to enter and exit the water and kind of dived around you sometimes. It's not your fault your dive buddy sucked, but it is your fault if you relied on that person for your safety. Since he's your ex he probably had more faults than just his poor diving skills and lack of concern for your safety.

It's not judgmental, it's simply the truth. It becomes shocking or judgmental to those of us who simply are so accepting of buddies who lack the most basic skills and cognitive recognition of having some responsibility to the other person who's counting on them in a dive emergency. You and others have grown so accepting of this lack of basic dive safety that someone who calls out what is so obviously wrong is labelled judgmental.

The truth is - that the survivor has no idea what happened to their buddy, that's not judgmental, that is the truth. They have no idea because they abandoned their buddy at the surface. It's the 'same crap, different day' nothing more. The sooner people stop calling this judgmental and start agreeing to be safer dive partners the less of these threads there will be. If people want to dive as solo divers, then get the training and equipment.

---------- Post added January 26th, 2014 at 05:16 PM ----------

Diving is a sport of personal responsibility. Risks can be mitigated but they cannot be eliminated. To imply that his dive buddy (wife) may be responsible for his death without any evidence? Where does anyone get off? People have heart attacks. They have strokes. They get attacked by sharks and hit by boats. Assuming that every person in every situation could be saved by correct "buddy action" is (IMO) ridiculous.

Re read what I said, cause I said it very carefully. I said the survivor is responsible for the victims DISAPPEARANCE, not death.

"Surviving diver, what happened to your diver you were diving with, where are they?"

Survivor - "I don't know, we came to the surface, I swam toward the boat, I swam away from my buddy, never looked back, totally ignoring him and paying no attention to him, and did not stay near him during the swim, he disappeared, I don't know what happened to him."

This is also what I wrote --

Now whether the other diver could be alive right now, nobody will ever know cause nobody knows what happened cause the buddy abandoned the victim and has no information of what happened. Maybe there was no saving the victim, maybe all it would have taken is a simple "hey, are you okay?" and a grab of the victim as the victim's head went under, a rescue swim back to the boat with the victim, dropping their weights or filling a panic diver's BCD for them? Who knows? We could ask the buddy, but they have no answers cause they swam away.

 

[vincent54]

Cayman dive operators will forever lose divers. The concept that the dive boat is just the taxi to the dive site won't work in Cayman.
Many of the divers that visit Cayman are older and infrequent divers, and not in that great of shape. The practice of a DM in the water and one in the boat works if the DM is the last out of the water and has some idea whats going on with the dive group. Usually they lead a group, get back within a half hour and exit the water. The divers trailing along will swim another 15 minutes and head back to the boat. Take a watch at the exit strategy of these divers and you'll see an epic battle at the ladder after dragging themselves with the trailing rope to the ladder. That is , if the exhausted diver gets a hold of the rope. Usually when it is rough you'll see 2 or 3 divers struggling to reach the rope. I wouldn't think it would be too much trouble to have the DM hang around underwater and herd the wayward divers back to the boat. Not blaming the DM's, but literally losing a diver is a bad business plan. The forum is good at calling for self sufficiency and rescue, but the diver that comes down once in a while has minimal chance if trouble arises. If a resource like an observant DM is available, utilize it. Don't have them on the boat covered up in a jacket. To the experienced Cayman divers, please correct me if this observation is wrong.

And the only conclusion at the end of a two year investigation will be "death by misadventure"

 

[tanksforthememories]

I dove Grand Cayman 2 years ago and found the op I went with very safety orientated. The DM gave a detailed plan with visual aides. There was always a leader and a follower (usually 2 followers) and the DM was always the last out of the water. Head count was by roll call. And despite a very rude local the captain refused to go to sites where weather conditions were less than ideal. The local was politely told he would receive a full refund if he was not satisfied. The divers were generally older but no one was obviously out of shape. The buddy system was promoted but unfortunately as others have pointed out, most divers swam single file some taking off to take photos if they saw something shiney... Should dive ops inforce good dive protocols? My buddies and I surface swim in together, mainly so we can talk about the dive, but also because one thinks they are not a strong swimmer. This thread really drives home the point that if you are not watching your buddy above and below, you don't know what is happening. As others have said, you may not have been able to save your buddy but at least you would know what happened.

I should have pointed out, 1 DM for every 4 divers, leading and 1-2 DM's following the entire group. At the end of our 3 minute safety stop I always had 500+ psi but had 45-60 min dive time. Sounds like you should try a different op on Grand Cayman.

 

[vincent54]

I dove Grand Cayman 2 years ago and found the op I went with very safety orientated. The DM gave a detailed plan with visual aides. There was always a leader and a follower (usually 2 followers) and the DM was always the last out of the water. Head count was by roll call. And despite a very rude local the captain refused to go to sites where weather conditions were less than ideal. The local was politely told he would receive a full refund if he was not satisfied. The divers were generally older but no one was obviously out of shape. The buddy system was promoted but unfortunately as others have pointed out, most divers swam single file some taking off to take photos if they saw something shiney... Should dive ops inforce good dive protocols? My buddies and I surface swim in together, mainly so we can talk about the dive, but also because one thinks they are not a strong swimmer. This thread really drives home the point that if you are not watching your buddy above and below, you don't know what is happening. As others have said, you may not have been able to save your buddy but at least you would know what happened.

Which proves my point, A dive where the DM stays with the good divers in buddy teams, with a plan, and the DM last out, in safe conditions will usually result in a successful dive. Now throw in some rough weather, divers that dive one time a year with less than ideal cardiovascular, and that will complicate things. Like I said, keep the DM's in the water if you can.

 

[FinnMom]

What I took away from this was the idea that I should more easily dare to take someone's weight belt or push them to dump some weight if they are in distress.
It seems like an awful lot of dive deaths read that the person was on the surface but at some point vanished, presumably below the surface. The victim might not make it but it least we wouldn't have to wonder if things could have gone differently if the victim had not become separated from us.

 

[herbdb]

I have seen tired divers surface needing help back to the boat or a pickup a number of times. I have never seen anyone dump their own weights. They often have to be reminded to inflate their BCD even though they are struggling to stay at the surface. Panic seems to override training in these cases. Add in high seas, current or a medical issue and the potential is worse.

In the Rescue course they stress that the first step after getting a distressed diver to the surface is to make sure they stay there. I don't know why, but this seems to get overlooked often.

I usually dive with a family member and our standard brief is that if one of us can't make it to the boat/shore, we will hook ourselves together, inflate a safety sausage and relax and wait for pickup. Hopefully this will never happen, but you never know.

 

[Mike]

Cayman dive operators will forever lose divers. The concept that the dive boat is just the taxi to the dive site won't work in Cayman.
Many of the divers that visit Cayman are older and infrequent divers, and not in that great of shape. The practice of a DM in the water and one in the boat works if the DM is the last out of the water and has some idea whats going on with the dive group. Usually they lead a group, get back within a half hour and exit the water. The divers trailing along will swim another 15 minutes and head back to the boat. Take a watch at the exit strategy of these divers and you'll see an epic battle at the ladder after dragging themselves with the trailing rope to the ladder. That is , if the exhausted diver gets a hold of the rope. Usually when it is rough you'll see 2 or 3 divers struggling to reach the rope. I wouldn't think it would be too much trouble to have the DM hang around underwater and herd the wayward divers back to the boat. Not blaming the DM's, but literally losing a diver is a bad business plan. The forum is good at calling for self sufficiency and rescue, but the diver that comes down once in a while has minimal chance if trouble arises. If a resource like an observant DM is available, utilize it. Don't have them on the boat covered up in a jacket. To the experienced Cayman divers, please correct me if this observation is wrong.

And the only conclusion at the end of a two year investigation will be "death by misadventure"

It certainly would not hurt. However, a DM on a dive is not a requirement for scuba diving. It's a nice safety net if it's available and assuming the DM is actually along for safety and more importantly is actually doing it.

However, if you're certified to dive you're supposed to be able to plan your dive, dive your plan and do so without a DM anywhere in the vicinity, you're also supposed to dive dive sites and conditions within your training and skill level. Your buddy carries your emergency air supply and is your safety back up, not the dive master.

I can think of no single thing that deteriorates skills, stops the progression of new skills, reduces the progress of new scuba divers then the DM in the water on vacation diving locations. The problem is that new divers often view the DM as an extension of their instructor from back home and it may take years or may never happen that they finally realize that the DM in the water is nothing more than a tour guide working for tips. The nature of DMs and their personality and willingness to take limited responsibility for their guests such as helping with gear, giving advice etc... only reinforces to many divers that the DM is their safety net and will keep them out of trouble. Just the simple act of checking air underwater by the DM, of those in his group is evidence to many that the DM is watching out for them, again falsely reinforcing a false sense of security.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Personally I prefer that DM's stay out of the water and on the boat where they can be useful. Maybe more people would take seriously keeping their skills up in all areas if they knew and understood that they alone are responsible for everything that happens to them once they enter the water.

If some say I need a DM in the water I have to ask why? What in your skills is lacking, was not taught, or is rusty. When you figure it out go get that taken care of before you get back in the water.

It's why I like Keys boats and California boats. The DM stays on the boat and doesn't get in the water unless needed.

A DM that has just done an hour long dive herding a bunch of brain damaged cats is not going to be in any shape to go get a diver or pair of divers that missed the tag line due to their own fault and is now 100 yds away and drifting.

A DM fresh and rested on the boat who sees them CAN jump in with a line and perhaps render assistance or tell them to drop their damn weights and stop swimming. Just wait to be picked up.

 

[EastEndDiver]

In some diving vacation destinations scuba diving is "sold" as a trust me type thing with the DM's being "babysitters".Not everyone who goes to dive destinations bothers to put the time and effort into additional training etc.. Grand Cayman is one of those types of places.Whether it is right or wrong it happens in many places.

On the flip side I can dive with many operators on Grand Cayman ,who know me,solo or on my own with a buddy because of my experience .

If you don't like a DM in the water with you that's your choice but if I am not mistaken I think it is mandatory for Grand Cayman and also I know it is mandatory that they have someone on the boat at all times.

So plan your dive vacations accordingly.