Diver missing at Ginnie?

[boulderjohn]

Report of which was published by the IUCRR here.

Yes, they did a nice job of covering that 2013 incident.

As long as you are checking out their website, tell me how may incident reports you see after 2015.

I actually wrote an IUCRR report not too long ago. I wrote a report on a fatality on behalf of NSS and sent a draft to the recovery diver for a fact check. He said it was all factually correct and asked if I would mind if he used my report as the IUCRR report. I happily agreed. There was absolutely nothing to be disputed in that report. You will not find it on the site.

 

[cerich]

Yeah, I personally think the risk of being sued if all they did was report what they saw, is minimal.


I had a friend that died from breathing pure helium when he thought the bottle was 100% oxygen.

I just posted something regards IUCRR.. where (sit down Ken) I actually defend them. Would love your thoughts

Chris' defends what he has been very critical of for decades-

 

[Manatee Diver]

The biggest fear of accident reports and open discussion I've heard expressed -- personally as well as on-line -- is NOT of lawsuits, but rather of closing a cave, especially by a private landowner, who IS afraid of lawsuits. Much harder to quantify the risk of this happening, whether it has happened in the past or not.

How many of the Florida caves are on private property? I know Ginnie, Blue Grotto, the one behind DO, and the NSS/NSS-CDS owned/managed ones. I can't think of any else that are on private property and open for public diving these days.

And TBH I don't think that changes much, it would be easy to subpoena/FOIA for the area LE agencies, FD, medical examiner, or other agencies that have the relevant data. Heck lawyers are pros at this sort of stuff, and have connections to get the data faster and easier.

 

[tursiops]

How many of the Florida caves are on private property? I know Ginnie, Blue Grotto, the one behind DO, and the NSS/NSS-CDS owned/managed ones. I can't think of any else that are on private property and open for public diving these days.

And TBH I don't think that changes much, it would be easy to subpoena/FOIA for the area LE agencies, FD, medical examiner, or other agencies that have the relevant data. Heck lawyers are pros at this sort of stuff, and have connections to get the data faster and easier.

Are you saying that closing a site is not a valid fear?

 

[kensuf]

I just posted something regards IUCRR.. where (sit down Ken) I actually defend them. Would love your thoughts

Chris' defends what he has been very critical of for decades-

I read it. I'll call you in a minute or two.

 

[cerich]

Are you saying that closing a site is not a valid fear?

Cave diver gangs (I mean teams) that register a NFP get more sites closed to all but themselves than accidents do.

But, yes, accidents can contribute to cave closures. In fact in the 60-70's they contributed to caves being blown up literally. However, in the more recent last couple decades, cave divers close more so they have a private play ground than accidents do.
Just saying...

 

[drrich2]

The IUCRR no longer publishes reports but instead sends them to the police, where the public can only access them through a Freedom of Information Act request.

Since there's substantial interest, and these reports are generated, here's a question...

Just what's involved in seeking an IUCRR report from police in such an instance?

Could one of you do this if so inclined?

If you obtained it, could you then post a PDF copy online for everyone to see?

 

[Manatee Diver]

As long as you are checking out their website, tell me how may incident reports you see after 2015.

The only report after 2015 was Daisy's death in which the team leader, wrote up his report independently first.

Are you saying that closing a site is not a valid fear?

It is a valid fear, I don't see how keeping the IUCRR reports secret prevents it. Florida Sunshine laws make it easy to find the information required. We just don't have it in a central repository so normal people can browse them, and analyze them.

I was on my second weekend of cave training when Daisy died (in fact I was there at CCDS and I still regret not asking them where they were going). I went through all the accident reports shortly after I discovered the IUCRR, and it reinforced that all the cave diving rules are written in blood. And that the rules that we follow are in place for a reason. Tom's death last year gave me things to think about and discuss with my instructor when I crossover to CCR.

Even if Andrew's death proves to be something I already know, it could reinforce a lesson for someone else.

 

[tursiops]

The only report after 2015 was Daisy's death in which the team leader, wrote up his report independently first.



It is a valid fear, I don't see how keeping the IUCRR reports secret prevents it. Florida Sunshine laws make it easy to find the information required. We just don't have it in a central repository so normal people can browse them, and analyze them.

I was on my second weekend of cave training when Daisy died (in fact I was there at CCDS and I still regret not asking them where they were going). I went through all the accident reports shortly after I discovered the IUCRR, and it reinforced that all the cave diving rules are written in blood. And that the rules that we follow are in place for a reason. Tom's death last year gave me things to think about and discuss with my instructor when I crossover to CCR.

Even if Andrew's death proves to be something I already know, it could reinforce a lesson for someone else.

Understood.
On balance, it DOES seem that the definite safety benefits of full release of cave-diving death reports outweighs the possible negative actions that would follow such a release.

 

[mer]

How many of the Florida caves are on private property? I know Ginnie, Blue Grotto, the one behind DO, and the NSS/NSS-CDS owned/managed ones. I can't think of any else that are on private property and open for public diving these days.

How many caves are on private lands that are not currently and may never be open to cave diving due to owner's fear of liability?