Diver Indicted in 2003 GBR mishap

[MikeFerrara]

Sure Mike, off course you assume that both divers was totally clueless, afterall youve clearly stated further up in this thread that if you train with PADI youre dead..

I never said any such thing. I did quit a bit of training with PADI and I'm not dead. I used to be a PADI instructor and as far as I know none of my students are dead.

I didnt intend to bother answering, but there is nothing as far as ive seen referred to in this thread that suggest it was two divers who shouldnt be in the water in the first place thats involved in this incident.

Well lets see...one of them is dead and the other was seperated from her and failed to bring her back. Murder or unskilled? Which is more common? Like I said, I could be wrong but my money is on unskilled.

What most of the others base their speculations on is, atleast, whats been referred to other places...

...along with lots of assumptions concerning what he should have been able to do. As far as I can tell about all we know is that they went diving, there was a problem, he was seen holding her and then he surfaced without her. Sounds like a real cluster to me but I'm having a hard time believing that it was an intentional cluster.

He travels all the way across the world to kill his new bride on a dive with a bunch of other people? I guess there have been worse plans but I don't think they happen as often as unskilled divers get themselves in trouble on accident.

Lets go back to finno's post

This guy failed to perform several standard rescue procedures,

Which standard procedures?

made several major no-nos,

What no-nos and why wouldn't we expect them?

and on top of this, his actions went against what an emotionally attached love one would do in a tragedy like this.

What might that be?

In every course, OW, AOW, Rescue, you're taught about how important your buddy is, whether it's your wife or some guy whose name you don't even know.

Shall we examine exactly what is in the standards of those courses for about the millionth time? The buddy system is given little more than lip service and that's demonstrable. How rare are buddy seperations? They're not rare at all and in accidents they're the norm.

What scares me about this situation is that it shows that if you possess those cards, you may be held legally responsible for being able to perform to the level that those certifications lead (however falsely) others to believe that you can.

 

[Tigerman]

Last major accident I read of in the paper here was cave divers, who got separated and one died. They where both rebreather divers and had extensive experience. Guess those where poorly trained, unexperienced and bad divers too then, if your criteria for crappy divers is buddy separation and a casualty?

 

[Finno]

Firstly, he was the last on his dive boat to ascend, he didn't know another dive boat arrived, and a group were heading down. This group comprises most of the witnesses.

Ok, the several no no's and procedural mistakes

1. Bear hugging a victim, for starters.
2. Releasing an unresponsive victim without guiding victim to the surface.
3. If victim is too heavy, inflate the BCD slightly (her valve was on and her tank had air).
4. Drop weights on the victim
5. Failing to pursue and secure an unresponsive victim found sinking in the water.
6. Taking twice as long than a casual ascent to reach the surface and notify Skipper / EMS
7. Tell 16 versions of what transpired (Rescue training covers accident investigation)

Now, group these with the other suspicious actions

• The husband refused to come to Australia for the Inquest
• No evidence pointing to faulty equipment was found
• She asphyxiated, with tank containing air
• Witnesses saw him bear hug, and drop her
• Days before the wedding, he had allegedly asked her to make him beneficiary to her life insurance
• He joked on the day of her funeral that for an extra $10 she could have had a million dollar life insurance policy
• He tried to redeem the existing policy not long after her death

plus bizarre things like the face he didn't put a gravestone on her grave, and he removed flowers from her grave ( ??)

Specialists giving evidence at the inquest have all stated that "he broke all protocols when he abandoned his wife"

As I previously mentioned I agree with you completely Mike that you can't be expected to follow every rule, but how far through the list above does your eyebrow rise? How many 'mistakes', of minor and major both in size and effect, does a person have to make before it becomes suspicious?

 

[Ayisha]

Thank you Finno for providing new information.

I was wondering how likely it was that someone might harm another knowing other divers were around, but now I see that the tragedy occurred AFTER all other divers in his group had exited the water. The witnesses just happened onto the scene in progress...

Can we put the training standards discussion to rest in this thread? I don't recall seeing anything about the particular type of training, how much experience either of them had or how proficient/skilled either of them were/are. The points have been made.

Can anyone post links to the latest info?

 

[idivetrain]

Thank you Finno for providing new information.

I was wondering how likely it was that someone might harm another knowing other divers were around, but now I see that the tragedy occurred AFTER all other divers in his group had exited the water. The witnesses just happened onto the scene in progress...

Can we put the training standards discussion to rest in this thread? I don't recall seeing anything about the particular type of training, how much experience either of them had or how proficient/skilled either of them were/are. The points have been made.

Can anyone post links to the latest info?

What I did to get all info on this was I googled the husbands name. Came up with alot of articles.
Shelly

 

[Ayisha]

Thank you Shelly. Here are several of the more recent ones, which support Finno's statements.

It's not looking good...

The hug of death

al.com: Everything Alabama

Diver haunted by his bride's death on reef | The Courier-Mail

al.com: Everything Alabama

Sinister twist to death on the reef | The Australian

 

[Doubles]

It really sounds like the guy was an inexperienced, overly-certified diver who might be a freaked out lying douchebag at worst. A lot of people seem to be happy to convict him for murder on the basis of some douchebaggery. That isn't actually a legal standard for conviction, though, although it does make excellent fodder for Nancy Grace on CNN...

Yes I have found him guilty of douchebaggery!

Even starting to lean towards the non-accident side of the fence.

Yes an overly certified diver might be freaked out, but a highly trained and experienced person might also freak out. I have been in situations where there was a lot less risk (non-diving) and highly trained individuals would not engage - it's sad that it happens but it does. Everyone is different - not everyone will step up and do something - even for a loved one.

The comment that he supposedly made about her being swept away from him is one reason I lean toward it not being an accident.

The slow ascent is another - yes he might be paranoid about DCS but then again it was his wife and if he was "freaked out" he might also panic and race to the surface.

I read where he supposedly told her parents something along the lines that she winked at him when he left her as if she knew he was going for help - now this one's a winner - you can't breath, your probably in some state of panic and your going to wink at someone and fully understand that they are going for help - yea right

Has anyone near the inquest learned as to whether the valve was found fully open or not - or whether it was reliably checked?

-s

 

[MikeFerrara]

Firstly, he was the last on his dive boat to ascend, he didn't know another dive boat arrived, and a group were heading down. This group comprises most of the witnesses.

Ok, the several no no's and procedural mistakes

1. Bear hugging a victim, for starters.
2. Releasing an unresponsive victim without guiding victim to the surface.
3. If victim is too heavy, inflate the BCD slightly (her valve was on and her tank had air).
4. Drop weights on the victim
5. Failing to pursue and secure an unresponsive victim found sinking in the water.
6. Taking twice as long than a casual ascent to reach the surface and notify Skipper / EMS
7. Tell 16 versions of what transpired (Rescue training covers accident investigation)

Have you ever surfaced a paniced or unresponsive diver? I have. When I look at this story I try to consider how it might have went for me when I was "rescue diver". I was "rescue" certified a few weeks after first becomming OW certified and only had a few dives, most of them in the same quarry. At the time there was a lot more that I didn't know and couldn't have done than what I could have.

My first paniced diver was when I was a DM candidate. She paniced and sunk like a rock. There was an instructor on the dive who had ear trouble and could not descend to help. I brought that diver up from about 65 ft but it took a long time...we'd go up a little, then down, then I'd get my mask knocked sideways or my reg knocked out. We were mid water with no reference and at times my only hint that we were going the wrong direction was the pain in my own ears.

At some point it might have even looked like I had the victem in a bear-hug and was trying to drag her down. It was a regular cluster.

Now, group these with the other suspicious actions

• The husband refused to come to Australia for the Inquest
• No evidence pointing to faulty equipment was found
• She asphyxiated, with tank containing air
• Witnesses saw him bear hug, and drop her
• Days before the wedding, he had allegedly asked her to make him beneficiary to her life insurance
• He joked on the day of her funeral that for an extra $10 she could have had a million dollar life insurance policy
• He tried to redeem the existing policy not long after her death

plus bizarre things like the face he didn't put a gravestone on her grave, and he removed flowers from her grave ( ??)

A lot of "hear say" in that list and LOTS of divers are found dead with full air in their tanks.

Specialists giving evidence at the inquest have all stated that "he broke all protocols when he abandoned his wife"

broke protocol? Yes and that's the way most dive accidents go.
I remember what all the "specialists were saying when Indianapolis fire department team divers were getting killed on training dives. Rest assured, they usually do manage to drop the victems weights though and finish them off.

As I previously mentioned I agree with you completely Mike that you can't be expected to follow every rule, but how far through the list above does your eyebrow rise? How many 'mistakes', of minor and major both in size and effect, does a person have to make before it becomes suspicious?

Suspicion is one thing. Evidence of guilt is another. I see lots of reason to believe that he performed poorly.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Can we put the training standards discussion to rest in this thread? I don't recall seeing anything about the particular type of training, how much experience either of them had or how proficient/skilled either of them were/are. The points have been made.

Can anyone post links to the latest info?

Their training level was stated and also that she was a new diver.

Of course we can defer the standards discussion. Just realize how often we do that and let the agencies completely off the hook. Also realize that in this case, a diver may be held accountable for possessing skills that he never actually demonstrated having.

For example. He is being critisized for "not staying with her". Get some OW, AOW and rescue training standards and review the related required performance requirements.

 

[Ayisha]

Their training level was stated and also that she was a new diver.

I did read about her (after my post above) being a new diver in one of the above articles I referenced, but that does not negate the rest of my statement above. All we know about him is that he is a "rescue diver" - not his particular training or experience or proficiency. We don't know much about him at all - how he reacts to stress, whether he panics, his ideosynchrasies as a diver or person, his relationship with his bride...

...in this case, a diver may be held accountable for possessing skills that he never actually demonstrated having.

Agreed. I have read your arguments about training standards numerous times in various threads over the last few years, and I agree with your points. I also think, however, that once a point has been made, it is not necessary to pursue the point repeatedly in the same thread.

Trust me, I became a Master Scuba Diver in my first 6 months, and I didn't look like any master scuba diver. I learned to improve my diving by reading this board, asking questions, listening, watching others, practicing, and getting out diving. We all know what little it takes to collect c-cards -- hopefully we can move on.