Diver drowns while training

[indypddiver]

Hello everyone,

With regards to the photo seen in the Indianapolis Star and the "dangling hoses", what you saw was a technique taught all over the United States, in public safety diving, designed to assist a diving buddy who is out of air at depth. Because the majority of the diving we do is done in zero visibility, we place the spare octo there so that our buddy can easily locate it in case of an emergency, even when he cannot see. Its a simple drill...find your buddy's head, follow it down the tank, where you will then find his spare octo at the bottm right of his tank. Its not brain science. The spare octos are also easily within reach of the person dawning them. I completely realize that this may sound bazaar to those of you who have not had experience in zero visiblity, or experience in somewhat confined spaces, but believe me, there is a logical reason. I know, I know...I'm going to hear a thousand reasons why the octos shouldn't be there or how this goes against PADI reccommendations, etc., but its extremely difficult to communicate under water in zero vis or find a spare octo on a diver who doesn't necessarily realize you have a problem and cannot see you when you do. Again, it comes down to philosophy. I saw the picture. You cannot see well enough to know that the octo is secured.

 

[indypddiver]

DivingBear,

No offense, but how would you possibly know whether or not the FD or PD have enough experience? You state you're not Open Water certified? You also state that guys do it for hazardous duty pay and that they do not dive off duty. That's complete hogwash. We do not (the PD) get paid anything extra to be a member of the dive team and all members do so because they happen to love diving and want to be part of something we deem important. EVERY member of my team dives and has dived extensively off duty. That's how we arrived as members of the team in the first place.

I am not trying to put down anyone's opinion, but for Pete's sake, DO NOT post messages that are completely false and lack any factual basis what-so-ever. Yes, I realize you are free to post anything you like...that's obvious enough.

Until YOU get a level of experience beyond floating around in a pool, I'd stay off of this topic.

Sincerely frustrated,

indypddiver

 

[Burke]

when someone that has ZERO idea what the hell he is talking about gets on here and starts telling people what he thinks of their diving technique. Advice and opinions from extremely knowledgeable people like Mr. Ferrara is great. Advice and opinions from people that don't know what the hell they are talking about is a little annoying. Especially so when they are saying something inflammatory or insulting such as the case with TheDivingBear.
I am reminded of the saying,
"It is better to say nothing at all and let people think you are an idiot, then to say something and remove all doubt."

 

[Dryglove]

As in any profession you have the good with the bad.I went diving today in a lake(about 5 ft vis) with a county sherriff who is a part of his agancies dive team.He has several years experience diving.He is currently serving as an ssi dive con.He is extremely pofessional and very safety minded along with having his sh*t together. Unfortunately he is not the example that all public safety divers thrive to be.But he is an example of a public safety diver using every tool available to better himself and his team.

 

[TheDivingBear]

Originally posted by indypddiver
DivingBear,

No offense, but how would you possibly know whether or not the FD or PD have enough experience? You state you're not Open Water certified? You also state that guys do it for hazardous duty pay and that they do not dive off duty. That's complete hogwash. We do not (the PD) get paid anything extra to be a member of the dive team and all members do so because they happen to love diving and want to be part of something we deem important. EVERY member of my team dives and has dived extensively off duty. That's how we arrived as members of the team in the first place.

As I stated, it was my opinion. I never claimed it to be fact. I know very few people in IPD or IFD and perhaps I was a bit out of line. If so, I apologize. I was raised around the miltary and the MPs and other emergency response teams were paid extra (called hazardous duty pay). This pay was a good motivator and I believe that pay exists in the public services for teams that above and beyond standard duties.

Until YOU get a level of experience beyond floating around in a pool, I'd stay off of this topic.

Sincerely frustrated,

indypddiver

I apologize for being a source of your frustration. I hope that I never find myself in a situation where I need your services; but if I do, I hope that this would be behind us.

Bear

 

[indypddiver]

DivingBear,

As you can probably understand, with the events of the past two weeks, the IPD and IFD dive teams have come under alot of scrutiny...deservedly so, I might add. I did not take anything you said as purposely insulting, I just wanted an opportunity to set the record straight. I appreciate the fact that you're on this message board talking about safety and what we can do to be better. That can never be a bad thing.

I assure you, if the unfortunate day ever comes that you need my or the dive team's service, you will get the very best we can do. That's a promise.

indypddiver

 

[MikeFerrara]

An update.
We are trying to organize the workshop I mentioned before. We're inventing it as we go. The indi fd sounded kind of luke warm on the idea. The person we spoke to didn't know how many would be interested in doing it without getting paid for their time. It seems that learning may not be taking place. Any diver that does not come to terms with the fact that, when under water, "only you are responsible for you" "only you can swim for you" "only you can breath for you" has a hard row to hoe.

I had some spots open up in a rescue class at the last minute. We offered them to area public safety divers for the cost of the books. indi fd pointed out that all training was on hold. Of course if a guy wanted to go diving on his own time I don't think they could stop him. I am not doing this to save the G## D### city or county money. I need it more than they do. I'm doing it so divers can do something without needing department money and without spending their own. I'm trying to make it easy and take away the excuses.

 

[Dryglove]

Its all about politics and liability.I see it all the time.Its really sad they would keep these guys from getting some excellent training.As for those who dont want to volunteer any time without getting paid for it,i frown upon them.That right there shows they use it for extra pay,personal gain within there dept for future promotions and such or as a stature type of thing.As far as the ones that wont do any extra training without getting paid should get a boot in there a**. Why would you turn down an almost free training to better yourself and possibly save your own life or someone elses.Its really sad sometimes to see such a lack of desire and eagerness.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I should point out that, at this point, we can't make the offer to the individual divers because we don't know who they are. Therefore, what we got was one persons opinion of how the program would be recieved. With training halted (by the city) the department probably can't direct them to the rescue class. I'm hoping that as divers find out about this stuff we will have more direct contact. As of now not too many even know what we are trying to do. We have contacted two departments but the info may not have found it's way to the divers. We sent out press releases and did receive cofirmation that it would be printed but they didn't say whan and I haven't seen it.

As avid divers who talk to other avid divers, most of you know what training is available where. In contrast, A newer diver on a dive team may not aware of all that is available. Also keep in mind that being a firemen and policemen is no way to get rich. For a person with a family and all that goes with it paying for a lot of training out of pocket may not be an option. Having crazy work hours can also make it difficult.

These are some of the reasons that when a student expresses interest in this kind of work that I try to educate them on how to pick a dive team. If the training and equipment and standards are not up to snuff (the diver needs to have a feel for what this means) my advice is to skip it. When I do a dive everything must be just right. I am prepared is all respects. If I feel I am not prepared, I call the dive. In order to make a good go/no go decision you need to have a good definition of what prepared is.

In my personal diving I won't dive with someone who has chosen not to learn the rescue skills that they need to help themselves and maybe me (not refering to new divers who just haven't got there yet). I don't understand sending a team into a dangerous invironment without those skills (rescue training) but some teams do it.
This will no doubt be an education for me also.

 

[Dryglove]

Whats that old saying...you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink it.You put the offer on the table.Its there for them if they choose.Hopefully they can bypass there upper echelon and receive the training on there own once word gets out.