Diver drowns while training

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

I have no desire to insult you or any member of your team or proffession. I am an instructor and I do teach search and recovery, rescue, ice, full face mask, dry suit and gobs of other stuff. Last year I issued over 100 certifications many of which were in the above mentioned disciplines. I am certified as an instructor by two agencies the International Association of Nitrox and Technical Divers and The Proffessional Association of Diving Instructors. My knowlege of search techniques and rescue Techniques is up to date and I get plenty of practiced. My credentials would establish me as an expert in the teaching and execution of these searches and the techniques used in assisting a team member in trouble. Asside from teaching these things I have performed numerous assists and rescues all of which were successful. I have managed a paniced diver at depth. I am in the water alot and see alot. I conduct over two hundred dives per year. Anything I say I can back up with references to texts and training standards. My intent is not to upset you but to somehow help keep you alive. The osha report leads one to believe that these guys are trained to drop the weights of a distressed diver under water. We do not teach this as a viable procedure unless the diver is so heavy that he can not be raised to the surface otherwise. It is important that the victem be brought up in a controled manner to avoid pulmanary baratrauma. I can also tell you that the instructor is responsible for maintaining control. Even if the instructor chooses a vantage point which is out of the water he must be prepared to respond if the need arises. My statements are consistant with the training standards of all agencies regardless of the level of training taking place. These divers died while participating in training which is comparable in nature to the training we conduct all the time. It was the simple stuff not being correct that got these guys not some psd specific thing that I wouldn't know about. I may even be aware of some major problems that exist in public safety diving that you are not aware of. You might investigate them. I may even be a useful resource and be able to direct you to others. Unless you are an instructor there are , I believe, important issues you would unlikely be aware of. I do have a day job as diving doesn't pay the bills. I also own a dive shop and teach almost every day.
Mike

 

[MikeFerrara]

The only reason I mentioned caves was to help establish my familiarity with the problems associated with the use of lines and potentially stressful environments. I do not dive in the warm clear Caribbean I dive in the cold cloudy waters and caves of Indiana and Missouri. It had nothing to do with being cool.

 

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

Another bit of info that you and others may be interested in....
I was one of 5 instructors nation wide who were asked by the Indianapolis Star to review the osha report on the accident which occured in Aug of 2000. I walked them through my analysis backing up my position with training standars and texts throughout. We realize that a report is dependant on the recalection of participants and what they are willing to devulge. The recomendations at the end of the report would lead one to believe that the investigators understood what went wrong and asked for the appropriate corrective actions (at least in part). However, it seems they tried very hard not to place blame resulting in a lack of accountability. This is my opinion but the same instructor was involved both times and it seems (no details yet) that at least some of the same mistakes were repeated. The instructor aparently never even saw the report or the recomendations that resulted. This presents the apearance that there was no effort made to implement the recomended corrective actions. Some of them were no doubt in place all along but not all. It is my understanding that the other four instructors gave analysis which were in line with mine. I am told that all of this info was edited out of print due to space/political concerns. Here lies one of the major problems. These incedences and the practices that lead to them are rarely if ever subjected to the evaluation of an independant expert (someone who knows diving and dive training) with no department or political ties. Everything is kept all in the family. It is very hard for someone outside the family, regardless of expertise to contribute. To All...If you are a Public safety diver you may die because of someones personal agenda or misplaced loyalties! The police know law inforcement. Firemen know how to put out fires. I and my collegues know diving and dive training. This is what we do. I for one desire to contribute in a positive as apposed to a negative manner. Our chance to contribute, however, is always after the fact. Saying I told you so all the time is not very satisfying. Being right is no fun when someone must die to prove it. I train many who have a desire to join their local team. As things are all I can do is to discourage them. The IUCRR (International underwater Cave rescue and Recovery) has a data base which includes public safety diving accidents. Check it out if you can. I know this is all talk but that is all I can do, so I will. Some might benefit by listening. I wish someone would prove me wrong that would be less frustrating.

Mike

 

[MikeFerrara]

Originally posted by indypddiver

You say our "training dives are not what we would call challenging by any strectch of the imagination..." How would you possibly know? Have you actually been to one of our training dives and participated?

No but I would welcome an invetation. And...indypddiver, I extend to you an invitation to dive with us or participate in one of our rescue classes anytime. It couldn't hurt to see how the other side lives. Believe it or not, I am on your side

Mike

 

[ericfine50]

Public Safety Diving has its ups and downs. When I worked for Sartek Industries and we would attend the FDIC show in Indy and other PS shows, you could see the difference between the professional teams and the volunteer based teams. Some of these guys were diving in contaminated water w/ wetsuits and standard scuba! They just did not understand the need for other training. Then you have several agancies and they all have slightly different approches to equipment and procedures (Lifeguard Systems in one). This was an accident and maybe the IFD needs to re-evaluate the training methods or increase the number of dives. I don't think there is one clear cut answer.

Eric

 

[Dryglove]

I have to say i agree with mike on this issue.I am also in law enforcement but do not serve on a dive team.I do serve on a swat team.Any kind of training accident is unacceptable.I do understand that **** happens.One thing that is drilled in to us is safety safety safety!!! To me two deaths in two years on training dives are unacceptable.Murpy is always knocking on your back door waiting to rear his ugly head especially on a real life call out.

Im not bad mouthing anybody as i was not there.I am just sorry that person died.I do know that a lot of teams(not necessarily diving teams) have a serious ego problem and do not seek training outside there agency.Somebody like mike could be very beneficial to a dive team.It never hurts to have someone outside your department evaluate your standards and training and ask his recomendations for changes or improvements.If you like it you adapt it into your standards if not oh well.You might think your dive team is the sh*t and not realize how screwed up you really are.Im not saying this is the case but i have seen it from other teams that failed to seek any kind of training or insights from an outside source.The result was people died for no reason.

Please dont take this post as insulting or pointing fingers.I realize you fight as you train or in your case dive as you train therefore you dive under the worst conditions.Train for the worst and hope for the best.We had a saying in the army,sweat more in peace time and bleed less in battle.Always beware of murphy,remember he is watching every move you make!!

 

[indypddiver]

Mr. Farrara,

I appreciate you last message and agree completely with everything you said. After reading your credentials, I would certainly say that you are more than qualified to speak about this issue. I apologize for the slight hostility expressed to you by me in my last message. I think you can understand that, under the circumstances, I was a little defensive about people pointing fingers and placing blame before it was warranted.

I also agree that there are obvious problems with keeping things in house rather than opening up our training and techniques for evaluation from qualified outside experts. Thank you for offering up your knowledge and experience for our dive team. I will certainly pass your offer along to those in charge (which I am not). I want to express to you that many of the problems associated with receiving outside training from people such as yourself, are not at all dive related. I know for a fact that the vast majority of guys on my team, myself included, would jump at the chance at receiving the type of technical traing of which you speak.

Continued....

 

[indypddiver]

Most of the major hurdles in getting that accomplished are bureaucratic. Getting a department to ok such training, then pay for it is a nightmare. We're lucky if we get enough money for equipment issues and other vital needs as it is. I can honestly say that big egos do not get in the way of progress on my team, other things do however. I have never once heard anyone on my team say that we're trained enough or that they'd be opposed to bigger and better ideas. The fact of the matter is that although our dive team is vital to public safety, no one in a position to do so wants to spend the money to make us the best we can be.

Mr. Ferrara, I also printed off copies of the report that you provided regarding the accident in August 2000 and handed them out to all members of the team. Some were aware and had seen it, some were completely oblivious to its existance. Its information like that that will keep us alive. I sincerely thank you for that. By the way, much of the report made its way into the paper today.

I plan to research all of the topics that you listed and present them to the team. I also plan to suggest the idea of bringing you, or someone like you, in to better prepare the team.

Thanks again,

indypddiver

 

[indypddiver]

lal7176,

As with Mr. Ferrara, I also completely agree with your statements. Any training accident is more than unacceptable. I did not take your post as insulting at all. You simply speak the truth. You are definitely right when you say that egos sometime get in the way of intelligent progress. I have not found that to be true of my particular team, but then again, I obviously have a biased view of things.

I'd really love to have Mr. Ferrara take a look at our practices and evaluate our training, however, I am not the guy in the position to get that accomplished. I can, however, suggest it!

Thanks for your comments.

indypddiver

 

[MikeFerrara]

indypddiver,

There is no need to apologize to me. The subject stirs emotion, even for me and I didn't know anyone who was lost. I can only try to imagin what it is like for those who are closer. I however do apologize if I was insensitive. I do not have all the answers. My own training and experience has its limits. I am aware of many of the problems that dive teams are faced with. For starters, and I don't think you or your teammates need anyones permission for this, I would be more than willing to go over this report (or just talk diving philosophy in general) with anyone interested (it's public record). We could do so without any team member disclosing anything not meant to be public. If a diver walks away with questions for those in charge someone may benefit. I know that some team divers (especially the new divers) have done little diving outside of the team and just having another source of info may help. I do not charge for free advice. This is an open invitation. One of my former instructors is also police academy instructor who teaches diving among other things. He may also be a very aproachable source. If you are interested send me a PM and I will give you contact info. We are in Lafayette (no connection to Larry who used to be on the levy). I get asked that alot. more later, I have a visitor.

Mike