Diver drowns in guided cenote dive
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The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Yes, I remember lots of tenets... even how to spell them.
Bob brings up a very interesting observation: Discover Cavern is the new Discover Scuba. Both are fraught with dangers that the participant is not likely to recognize or know how to deal with. It might be economically viable for them to sacrifice a few participants to the Gods of commerce, but that doesn't sit well with me.
Bison Ravi
Contributor
I agree that guided cavern dives are very similar to DSD dives. And in both cases, for many reasons, right or wrong, they are not about to disappear.
Also, I find that saying "he (the victim) didn't belong there, he dived beyond his training, etc" is being too simplistic and obtuse and misses an opportunity to improve on the safety of the activity, and maybe help in the conservation of the access to the caves for all divers.
Last time a cave accident happened in Mexico it caused a loss of access to some caves for all divers and the need to have a local guide even for trained cave divers in other caves (even if the accident was a guided cavern dive with a local guide).
IMHO, as a guide with DSD students, you cannot expect the customer to know everything and or to do everything perfectly. I think there should be a very thorough briefing before the dive, and constant attention to the divers through out the dive. There should be comprehensive liability waiver forms to be read and signed before payment for the dive.
After all that, the divers should understand and accept responsibility that they could very well die if they don't follow the instructions and the guide. And that the kind of dive they want to do incurs more risks than a normal dive.
That being said, and I think this might not please some people, I believe the problem lies in the guides and dive shops in Mexico.
As:
-A lot of the guides give lousy briefings.
-A lot of the shops don't give a realistic idea of the dive to the customers.
-A lot of the guides take divers of insufficient skills to those dives.
-A lot of guides don't follow the cavern lines close enough, as they know the way and they don't think about the fact that the customers might need that line.
-A lot of guides take customers into the cave zone, beyond the reaper signs, in the hopes of receiving a bigger tip, or for their own enjoyment of the dive, as some get bored of doing the same caverns all the time.
-Some people remove the reaper signs, so customers don't realize they are out of the cavern zone and into the cave.
Please note that I wrote "A lot", as it is very common. Like in every day.
But, there are a lot of shops/guides offering cavern dives and some of them are as professional as can be. Some of them are the ones putting up the reaper and cavern signs, giving quality education and helping all divers with having good relations with the authorities and the landowners.
So, in short, I believe the only way the situation is going to get any better in Mexico is with better education/enforcement of the accepted practices to the dive shops/guides. Sadly, I don't think it's happening anytime soon.
Also, I find that saying "he (the victim) didn't belong there, he dived beyond his training, etc" is being too simplistic and obtuse and misses an opportunity to improve on the safety of the activity, and maybe help in the conservation of the access to the caves for all divers.
Last time a cave accident happened in Mexico it caused a loss of access to some caves for all divers and the need to have a local guide even for trained cave divers in other caves (even if the accident was a guided cavern dive with a local guide).
IMHO, as a guide with DSD students, you cannot expect the customer to know everything and or to do everything perfectly. I think there should be a very thorough briefing before the dive, and constant attention to the divers through out the dive. There should be comprehensive liability waiver forms to be read and signed before payment for the dive.
After all that, the divers should understand and accept responsibility that they could very well die if they don't follow the instructions and the guide. And that the kind of dive they want to do incurs more risks than a normal dive.
That being said, and I think this might not please some people, I believe the problem lies in the guides and dive shops in Mexico.
As:
-A lot of the guides give lousy briefings.
-A lot of the shops don't give a realistic idea of the dive to the customers.
-A lot of the guides take divers of insufficient skills to those dives.
-A lot of guides don't follow the cavern lines close enough, as they know the way and they don't think about the fact that the customers might need that line.
-A lot of guides take customers into the cave zone, beyond the reaper signs, in the hopes of receiving a bigger tip, or for their own enjoyment of the dive, as some get bored of doing the same caverns all the time.
-Some people remove the reaper signs, so customers don't realize they are out of the cavern zone and into the cave.
Please note that I wrote "A lot", as it is very common. Like in every day.
But, there are a lot of shops/guides offering cavern dives and some of them are as professional as can be. Some of them are the ones putting up the reaper and cavern signs, giving quality education and helping all divers with having good relations with the authorities and the landowners.
So, in short, I believe the only way the situation is going to get any better in Mexico is with better education/enforcement of the accepted practices to the dive shops/guides. Sadly, I don't think it's happening anytime soon.
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The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Too bad there is no "GET THE PROPER TRAINING FIRST!" on this placard. This is the cultural problem with many cave areas. Like Mr Ratliff, they think training is OPTIONAL. Training is the most important piece to this whole problem. Don't do "Trust Me" dives is what I preach to my OW students. Always have. Always will.
I feel like I want to get bumper stickers made up with this as a quote and start slapping them on the comprehensive briefing boards found by the cenotes.
(I actually have the above sign as a bumper sticker on my car.)
If I go unconscious during a cave/cavern dive and am fortunate enough to have a skilled rescuer immediately nearby, I might make it. I was in a cave a couple years ago when that very thing happened, and I wrote the description of it for the National Speleological Society's reports on cave incidents. In this case, the buddy saw him go unconscious and got his regulator in his mouth just as he did so. He then took him out of the cave while holding the regulator in his mouth. There was a helicopter evacuation on shore. I was stunned when he lived, to be honest. The method is essentially the same as you would do in any other dive, except you are going sideways for a while instead of straight up.
If I go unconscious during a cave or cavern dive and there is not someone immediately there to perform a rescue, if someone comes to my unconscious body after I have passed out even for a brief amount of time, I expect I will die. Again, that is exactly the way it would be on an open water dive. Can anyone provide any statistics about the number of times someone has performed the rescue scenario practiced in a Rescue Diver class upon a diver who was not surfaced immediately after being rendered unconscious and had that diver survive? I don't know of a single case myself, so I would appreciate the information.
When I go into a cavern or cave, I accept the risk that if I go unconscious as I described, I will die. I accept that same risk on an open water dive. Life has risks. In scuba, we minimize risks to the greatest reasonable degree, but we cannot eliminate them. We can always stay in bed every day, in which case we risk death from bed sores.
If I go unconscious during a cave or cavern dive and there is not someone immediately there to perform a rescue, if someone comes to my unconscious body after I have passed out even for a brief amount of time, I expect I will die. Again, that is exactly the way it would be on an open water dive. Can anyone provide any statistics about the number of times someone has performed the rescue scenario practiced in a Rescue Diver class upon a diver who was not surfaced immediately after being rendered unconscious and had that diver survive? I don't know of a single case myself, so I would appreciate the information.
When I go into a cavern or cave, I accept the risk that if I go unconscious as I described, I will die. I accept that same risk on an open water dive. Life has risks. In scuba, we minimize risks to the greatest reasonable degree, but we cannot eliminate them. We can always stay in bed every day, in which case we risk death from bed sores.
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I am not a Cave Instructor. Diving is all about knowing your limits. Relying on others to extend your limits (Trust Me Dives) is foolhardy and dangerous. You either have the training or you stay out. It is just that simple. I don't understand why you would suggest differently.
I am on the National Committee for Fishing for the BSA. I was visiting Sand Hill Scout Camp just after the discovery of the cave system there. I was given permission by the BSA to go explore. Having already seen pics and knowing that this cave was well beyond my training, I said "Hell No!" and proceeded to make certain that they never offered that to anyone ever again. Die Polder is a cool system but it would probably be my very last dive. There is nothing down there worth dying for. Nothing.
You are free to exercise your right to analyze this accident ad nauseum. You are free to disparage me and my particular slant all you like. Unlike @JohnnyC, I won't disparage you back. But in the interest of anyone else that might read this thread and think that your analysis might enable them to enter this, or any system safely, I have to point out the following:
What you don't know will kill you in a cave. Don't trust your life to anyone in a cave. If you want to see the amazing topography then you need to put in the time, energy and money to get certified. You cut this corner at your own peril. DIVE WITHIN YOUR TRAINING. If you want to see the caverns, take the class and go with an instructor. If you want to see the caves, take the classes and go with an instructor. No matter how well meaning people like Mr Ratliff want to re-invent this wheel, just don't listen to them. Your life is your most precious possession. Don't gamble it on a cheap thrill on a trust me dive with anyone. I'm at a loss as to why anyone would disagree with this and try to discredit this basic tenet of Safe Cave Diving. Please, don't prove me right with your untimely death. Get the training. Follow all the tenets. Stay safe.
Why am I passionate about this? It's the same reason why ScubaBoard exists. Cave diving doesn't have to end in death. Get the training before you do the dives.
First, let me commend you about the BSA situation; I would have done the same, and actually did take a stand similar to that with a local troop years ago when they suffered a fatal skiing accident.
Second, I really don't know where you get the idea that I'm disparaging cave training. As Tom and Ray Magliozzi (NPR's Car Talk) used to say, "That's BOOOOGUS!!!"
I am talking accident analysis, not prevention, which are two separate topics. You need to look at group dynamics to see why people choose to error! Using simplistic approaches doesn't get there. It's like the "Just Say No!" program concerning drugs, or tobacco for that matter. They don't work. It's also apparent in this case.
SeaRat
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
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