Diver drowns in guided cenote dive

[chillyinCanada]

So stubborn.

OK, so the 12 year old boy goes on a joyride in grandpa's car and has an accident that kills him. No need to figure out how that happened. We already know he shouldnt have taken the car. But there he is, floating in a deep drainage ditch, the car upside down. The end. Just say no.

Don't get me wrong, I do respect where you're coming from but I'm obviously more curious. I'd like to know why he was lost ASIDE from the fact that he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

(Oh and it was good for me too)

 

[boulderjohn]

So someone should not do a guided cavern dive without proper training an experience. OK. What is the proper training and experience for doing a guided cavern dive?

NetDoc clearly said that you should not do guided cavern dives without cave certification. I asked him to clarify that--did he really mean that you are not qualified to do a guided cavern dive if you are cavern certified or basic cave certified or apprentice cave certified? He has not answered that question. Can anyone else here answer that question?

 

[JohnnyC]

I can't speak for NetDoc. However, the diver was found in the cave zone so really it's sort of a moot point. People are talking about cavern dives like he died on a cavern dive. He didn't, he died in the cave, ergo on a cave dive, he just didn't know it was a cave dive when he woke up that morning. (Or maybe he did and didn't care, regardless it's irrelevant)

Regardless, I don't think anyone should be doing a guided cavern dive unless they're in cave gear and can demonstrate that they are proficient with it, as well as proficient in skill. TGGDL, Training, Gas, Guideline, Depth, Lights. At a bare minimum you can sort out the equipment and proficiency with said equipment, and choose sites where depth is not an issue. You don't need to give them a cave course, but seahorse diving through a bedding plane isn't going to be helpful, and teaching someone how to OK a line on the way out doesn't take rocket surgery.

I'm also fully aware that maybe 3 shops in Mexico agree with my assessment and the rest do thousands of these "cavern" dives a year because, mostly, they go as intended, and it's an excellent money maker.

Think about the definition and limitations of a cavern dive and a certified cavern diver as per agency standards. Then look at what they do in Mexico and tell me that you're alright with it.

Edit: I seem to recall NetDoc saying he thought that guides should be cave instructors, not just DM's with a cave cert. Might that have been what he was talking about? I don't have time to reread the thread.

 

[Tzymische]

First of all (not going to quote as it was couple pages ago) @John C. Ratliff -> apologies but from your post and what I read about you didnt see anything about cave diving. Just missed it - which I am sorry about.

Now - @chillyinCanada I think this is the question - this WHY could be only answered by the deceased himself - no one else can figure out why he did what he did - the only thing I would like to know is - did he end up in cave zone because it was his decision (again - no answer on why?) or because their guide brought them there. If former - there's no and never will be an answer - if latter - then at least we can blame someone.

as for cavern diving and discover cavern/cave diving @boulderjohn => I dont have an answer - I did intro/discover cave diving some time ago. Before we went for an actual dives (6 total) we had over 4h lecture on do's and dont's - it was myself and 2 of my friends - we dive together for 2 years with over 100+ dives and we know each other really well we had exactly the same equipment, proper for caves (twinsets, dir config, 3 torches each, knives/cutters, reels etc etc) main torch we used is the same make and model with the same power and light output. We knew from the start to look after each other, we kept our light beams the way we could see them all the time and maintain passive communication, we checked each other all the times with ok signals - we are used to it due to the training and our average diving conditions here in Ireland (cold, bad visibility, strong currents, etc). Our guide was all around us all the time - caves were big enough to let him do it and it felt very safe and great... Then I did cavern training and intro to cave training - and honest to God I am not sure if I would do it again. In my case training and practicing drills and all of the emergency scenarios made me much much more aware. But can I say they shouldnt be any guided dives? I did one (I did 6 actually) - and maybe if done right, with right people it is safe to do - but...

 

[chillyinCanada]

Well John, now you're just being silly. Cave divers don't go on guided cavern dives.

 

[chillyinCanada]

Why did the guy end up in the cave zone? Perhaps if we did an accident analysis, we could find some scenarios to consider.

I agree, we'll never know for sure because he can't tell us. But extrapolations could be made. If the cave divers here aren't interested in that, closed off to the concept, so be it. Leave us know nothings to dither around and save yourselves the angst.

 

[JohnnyC]

Because he either left the group of his own accord or the DM took him in their. What great truth has been discovered by knowing that? And really, what does it matter? What have we learned from that epiphany that we didn't already know?

You're mistaking OUR (the people who know what we're talking about) accident analysis with what you're calling accident analysis, which is some dude with no frame of reference piddling a flow chart around. What are you trying to accomplish? Just because the experts can solve the riddle in one clue doesn't mean we should suffer random unqualified opinions simply to be polite.

You ignored my questions earlier, maybe have a crack at answering those.

You can get your undies in a twist all you want, but at the end of the day real analysis by people who understand what's going on will be valid, regardless of whether or not your unqualified opinion thinks it sufficient.

 

[Tzymische]

@chillyinCanada => you are right - the question is why he ended up there but if it wasnt guide decision to go there - we will never know why. Accident analysis makes sense but in this case it is really easy I think - did he end up in Cave zone ? yes - Why ? We dont know and we will never know. Why did he die? because he was in the cave zone without skills, training equipment and knowledge. How to avoid it in future? don't go diving into caves without skills, training, equipment and knowledge.

Then - if it was a guide decision to go there - only he or she can answer why...

 

[chillyinCanada]

Sorry J ohnnyC, I missed your questions of me. Perhaps it's because I'm sleep deprived from flying across half the world yesterday and today (and are my wings tired, badadumpbump). I'm going to try for some zzz's now and get back to you on those sometime tomorrow.

Oh and no one would go out in -40 without the gear. Heck that doesn't even sound fun with the gear, does it? But if someone did, why was he found so far from the igloo?

And on that note big guy, catch you later.

 

[chillyinCanada]

As for youTzymische, just keep telling me I'm right. I love to hear that. Who doesn't? Maybe even cave divers would like to hear that. G'nite.