Diver dies on French Reef (Keys)

[spoolin01]

Steve - I stick by my assessment of the original report. The captain of a boat has an extraordinary responsibility for the safety of his vessel and crew, and that aspect of the story needed addressing for completeness IMO. I thought it was surprising how little comment had been given to the role of the dive crew, and was careful to stress that I was taking the report as it was given. It *is* suggestive of negligence if two divers on the surface go unnoticed for 30 minutes at 100 yds from the boat under any standard you'd care to apply to a dive-for-profit operation. It's not a difficult visual challenge under the conditions described, but you have to be trying. It may not be practical in the Keys to set out a drift line, in which case other measures including added vigilance would be prudent. I've done 150+ liveaboard dives in the Channel Islands, mostly dedicated lobster trips where the boat accepts more challenging dives, and I can tell you the crew are on the job there. When someone is overdue, struggling, or conditions are bad, you know the crew knows what Job #1 is. There may be factors about the Keys and Keys' diving that increase the likelihood of lax or difficult dive supervision, but that was my point in raising the question. I certainly agree that as a matter of self-preservation you need to treat your own survival with dead seriousness, foresight, and preparation. However people using commercial recreational dive operations rightly expect a high standard of care, of which the report indicated no particular evidence (well, they did take a census at some point), and there was plenty of room to infer the opposite, by my reading - in the service of a 'lessons learned' exercise. I frankly don't understand your comment about the need for increased concern after a second dive when conditions are bad, but I assume it was facetious. Whether the dive operation was truly negligent depends on the actual facts and is beyond any of us to knowledgeably conclude - but I'd certainly hope the dive boat was engaged in the situation prior to considerably after the fact.

Mike

 

[diver 85]

Wouldn't it be considered chumming the water?

That is another way of looking @ it......but seriuosly, that's alot of boats in a small amount of water----I'd hate to be putting my 29'er in the middle of that---we generally have a lot of 'elbow room' around the rigs here off SW Louisiana...

 

[spoolin01]

DD- the eye-witness report adds some important context, but also makes the circumstances of the death more difficult to infer. Something apparently went terribly wrong with the two divers' response to their situation. On my original tack however, it provides no additional details of crew actions.

Mike

 

[Doubles]

Greetings Mike

Steve - I stick by my assessment of the original report.

I would not have made any assessment based on the original report - but that's me. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
Subsequent reports have offered contradictory information - 2 to 3 foot seas, no current, lots of sun, and surfacing more than 200 yards from the boat.

The captain of a boat has an extraordinary responsibility for the safety of his vessel and crew

agreed

, and that aspect of the story needed addressing for completeness IMO. I thought it was surprising how little comment had been given to the role of the dive crew, and was careful to stress that I was taking the report as it was given. It *is* suggestive of negligence if two divers on the surface go unnoticed for 30 minutes at 100 yds from the boat under any standard you'd care to apply to a dive-for-profit operation. It's not a difficult visual challenge under the conditions described, but you have to be trying. It may not be practical in the Keys to set out a drift line, in which case other measures including added vigilance would be prudent. I've done 150+ liveaboard dives in the Channel Islands, mostly dedicated lobster trips where the boat accepts more challenging dives, and I can tell you the crew are on the job there. When someone is overdue, struggling, or conditions are bad, you know the crew knows what Job #1 is. There may be factors about the Keys and Keys' diving that increase the likelihood of lax or difficult dive supervision, but that was my point in raising the question. I certainly agree that as a matter of self-preservation you need to treat your own survival with dead seriousness, foresight, and preparation. However people using commercial recreational dive operations rightly expect a high standard of care, of which the report indicated no particular evidence (well, they did take a census at some point), and there was plenty of room to infer the opposite, by my reading - in the service of a 'lessons learned' exercise.

My concerns are the same as another poster - that many think we are more visible than we really are - that is a very serious issue.

There is a lot we don't know and given my experience I am not yet ready to suggest that anyone was less than diligent as far as look outs go. Could there be negligence - you bet - But I can't infer that from what I have read here.

We don't know when the divers surfaced or how long they had been u/w. We do know they were never seen. We don't know when the crew realized they had 2 missing divers.

The surviving diver thinks they swam for about 30 minutes. How accurate of an estimate do you believe that was given the situation he was in?

I stick with my original comment related to trail lines.

I frankly don't understand your comment about the need for increased concern after a second dive when conditions are bad, but I assume it was facetious.

My point was not well written - my intent was to infer that a crews obligation to lookout for the welfare of their divers is no different in calm conditions on the first dive from that of horrible conditions late in the day - the actions they take may differ due to the current environment - but the obligation and standard of care are the same.

Whether the dive operation was truly negligent depends on the actual facts and is beyond any of us to knowledgeably conclude - but I'd certainly hope the dive boat was engaged in the situation prior to considerably after the fact.

Mike

agreed

Cheers

Steve

 

[spoolin01]

David - I appreciate much of your different take on this, but making assessments is the point of the forum - for the purpose of advancing our preparedness as divers, not as finders of fact in the actual event, as I tried to make clear.
We may have different starting points on this to some degree, and I understand from the nature of the forum that lessons learned would skew towards the failure of the divers to take care of themselves. Though I really confess I was startled to see suggestions along the lines of 'relax and drift off - they'll come get you' (not in your posts). But I favor a standard like we have in California for dog bites - strict liability I think they call it. It's perfectly reasonable as a personal ethic to think that if you provoke an aggressive dog on the street, it's your own fault you get bit. Common sense in one respect. It's also true at least in California that the owner is nevertheless responsible for their dog when in public, even when the victim acts stupidly. That's just the price that's paid for permitting animals with the capacity to maim and kill to roam among us. I think if you are a business that solicits to take divers out on your boat, you damn well better make sure they get back safe and sound, and (to a high degree) I don't care how inept or unprepared the divers are or how inconvenient or challenging it is to discharge your responsibility. That's my view of what it means to be a dive boat operator and captain on the seas.

[stepping down from soap box]
Best regards,
Mike

 

[Designated Diver]

Mike,

I don't think anyone's suggesting that dive operators do not have a responsibilty to exercise reasonable care, however, I think people take issue with your judgemental assertion that "It *is* suggestive of negligence if two divers on the surface go unnoticed for 30 minutes at 100 yds from the boat".

I have personally been on a trip where two divers did not come back to the boat when they were expected and the crew enlisted the help of all 15 of us on the boat to scan the water and look for them. After several minutes of silence only interupted by false alarms, a lady finally said "I think I see them!" We all rushed over to look where she was pointing and people were saying "Are you sure?" and "I don't see them" until one by one we each caught a glimpse of two little black dots bobbing in and out of view. We were all amazed at how much closer to the boat they were than we had imagined due to it taking us all so long to find them. My point? We are not all blessed with the super-human sight that you seem to possess. I was taught in my open water class that you are not as visible as you think you are out in the middle of the ocean, hence the need to carry signaling devices.

Had the crew of this dive boat not noticed there were divers missing at all or had they not alerted the proper authorities when they failed to spot the divers, then I might agree that they were negligent. However, they did both of these things according to the report and to the eye witness and within a reasonable amount of time. I think the point of other posters is that if the two divers had been carrying signaling devices, they would have been seen far sooner, since they were already, in fact, being looked for.

 

[Rick Murchison]

A hundred posts and five days ago I said:

But again, a hundred yards in any seas at all will make it blind luck to see a head during the split second its visible between waves, and, depending on the sun angle a head may not even be visible for a split second.

I can't believe there are those who doubt me, and Gilless, (we both have years of experience [professionally] looking for things in the ocean) on this point. Been there, done that.
Applying some "strict liability" standard to this situation is, shall we say, a bit of a stretch.

Rick

 

[cdiver2]

That some people in this thread have differing views that have stemmed from there own personal experiences with DIFFRENT dive ops.

I have seen excellent dive operators and some so poor that I would not dive with them again. Example, Dive op (A) drift dive 12 divers each diver had a SMB (mandatory) 4-6 foot seas with divers going in different directions (against what they were told) but the Capt was able to keep track of all of them and picked up all divers with no problem, great job.

Dive op (B) At anchor flat calm Capt laying on the bridge floor, DM laying on the dive deck floor debating the pros and cons of marriage, not a clue what the divers were doing, they should be held responsible and sued if things go wrong.

Each entity Diver/crew must do there best to make sure all precautions that can be taken are taken.

Having dived UK waters and the Keys I would have to agree that the boat drifting in UK waters is the best option, but in the Keys laying at anchor would be the best option, way to much boating action.

As for laying back and floating with the attitude the boat will come and get me. I don't think anyone on the board is advocating this more on the lines of If you surface away from the boat and find you can not swim back to the boat then use all your means to get the attention of the boat safety Sausage, whistle etc. If for some reason you are not seen consider your options, it may be there are no other option than to float, keep a look out, make yourself as visible as possible and float conserving your energy

 

[rcpalmer1]

A lot of you that are posting I feel don't understand Keys diving. I have dove on both coast the gulf and several other country's. Every area has a different way of diving. Every BC I have (6) all came with a whistle. Each one has a SS with 15' of line attached to it. That way no matter what BC I grab I will never forget my safety gear. If I am not coming up a mooring/anchor line or have a flag I send my SS up while I am on my safety stop. That gives the boat 3-5 minute to find me before I come to the surface. It also keeps other boat from running over the top of you.

As for this accident, I have dove with several charters in Key Largo. I have about 50 dives in the area including 6 from this past weekend. There was a strong wind but not much current on all 6 dives last weekend. A lot of the area is a marine sanctuary and it is illegal to anchor. All of the reefs and wrecks have mooring balls. To give you an idea of how crowded it can get the Spiegel Grove has 7 mooring balls on it. I have been there one than once that we had to wait for a boat to leave to get a ball. Some charters carry over 20 divers. That puts over 100 divers on one wreck at once. As for the reefs the mooring balls are close. Maybe 100' apart. I have gone out past three or four balls before turning around and coming back to the boat. With the number of boats that are in the area it would be dangerous to just drop divers and ride around above all the over divers. I have never seen a single diver hit the water that was not on a boat attached to a mooring line. Every dive briefing I have had in the Keys including this past weekend the DM told us if you are not sure where you are to come up half way through your dive and get a heading on the boat. Everyone was told to give a OK sign and one would be returned, If you came up to far from the boat give the big V for tiered dive and the boat would come get you after all the other divers were on board, or if you were distressed wave your hands and someone would come get you.

From what I have heard and read here and other places this was an accident. Not all accidents have to be someone fault. I am sure all party's involved are blaming themselves. This was a 30' dive with the top of the reef around 15'. Most dives on the reefs are limited to 45-60 minutes. After 60 minutes if all divers are not on the boat normally a distress call is sent of from the boat. Time seems to slowdown when you are floating on the surface and it is hard to judge distance. From what I have gathered the couple came up behind the boat. Instead of getting a heading on the boat and going back underwater and swimming to the boat they decided to swim on the surface against the wind and overexerted themselves.

Lessons learned

Never dive without both sight and sound signaling devices.
When diving from a moored boat alway dive in front of the boat or against any current.
Never empty your tank so if you come up away from the boat you can get a heading and swim back underwater.
If you are unable to make it back to your boat relax, inflate your BC and wait for rescue.Floating in the water for a hour will not kill you, panic will.

My 2 cents. Sorry if it is a little choppy. I am at work and had to start and stop several times.

 

[michrob]

My son and I were on the boat when this incident happened. The report mentioned above from the Miami Herald is very accurate. Some details as we saw them. This accident happened at the end of the second dive, at French Reef. There was a fairly strong wind, and 2 - 3 foot waves. There WAS a slight current. The boat was moored downwind and current from the reef. The pre dive briefing was very clear - swim to the reef, stay in that area, make a surface boat check after 30 minutes if unsure where the boat was (reef was 30 to 40 ft). We were told that this dive was one hour maximum. The captain and one crew member stayed on the boat.
My son and I entered the water at around 3:05. After 30 mins, I surfaced, a little unsure where the boat was, and to my surprise, saw that we were around 100 yards behind it. I then descended to my son, and we made our way back to the boat, re boarding at around 4:00. I think another group followed us after that.
At the hour mark, around 4:05, the crew counted all passengers, and found two missing. I've dived in the Keys many times, and this is hardly unusual. Divers are often five or ten minutes late. At hour mark, the captain and crew (there was another instructor who had dived) immediately began looking for the missing divers. After a short time, all passengers joined in in earnest. As stated in the Miami Herald article, the sun was low in the sky, and made searching in that direction almost impossible. EVERYONE on board scanned the sea in all directions for around 20 minutes, but with no success. The captain then notified the US Coast Guard (probably around 4:25 / 4:30)
By coincidence, a boat from the Florida Wildlife and Fisheries was nearby, although still 20 minutes away. When he arrived he immediately searched the area down wind / current of the boat, with no success. He then did a complete circle of the area, again finding nothing. With the Coast Guard boat minutes away (they came from Islamorada), he tried another sweep down wind of the boat, where on the third pass he found the divers. Unfortunately the lady had not survived. The Fisheries officer estimated (using his GPS) that they were well over half a mile from the moored dive boat, directly in line with the setting sun. It was an area that all on board had focussed on when looking for the divers.

Talking to the surviving diver on the ride back to shore, he stated that they had indeed surfaced some distance behind the dive boat, and had attempted to swim back. I'm guessing that this must have been at the end of their dive - he didn't state how long they had been down, or if they still had air. After some time, they had split up, and when he looked back, the female was not moving. He then returned to her, found that she had stopped breathing, and waited with her for rescue.

As many people have said, there are lessons to be learned from this accident. A scuba sausage would have helped. A whistle may have (not sure if they had rental gear - we did, and a whistle was attached). And as stated in the previous post, relaxing on the surface and inflating your BC would have been better that trying to swim back to the boat. I don't want to second guess the divers who were lost - who knows what was going through their minds? I know that my son and I are very fortunate - thanks to checking our location, we realized we were in the wrong spot, and managed to safely make our way back to the boat. We could easily have been in their place.

One last comment - the crew did everything that they could, and were professional and compassionate. This was an awful accident, which may have been avoidable given a few things going differently. Let's learn from this, and hopefully some good will come of it.

Our thoughts are with the lady's family and friends.