Diver Dies in Long Sault

[MikeFerrara]

snuggle,

I disagree.

I see hundreds of students and divers in the water every season. I'm usually unlucky enough to be present when a few are hauled off in an ambulance. Divers and students are being hurt and killed because of stupid things that aren't even real problems like free flows and loosing a fin.

When a shop or instructor looses a student the burden is on them as far as I am concerned.

I don't think any one dies in training unless it's a medical thing or some one makes big mistakes. If you are aware of an exception I'd love to see one.

I could list all the mistakes I witness in the water every weekend and a number of injuries or fatalities that have resulted from those very things. You make it sound like it's just bad luck when a student is lost.

Personally I want the agencies and instructors to explain why these things are happening if their methods are valid. Just a simple explaination would be fine. Do you think they will ever even discuss it? I don't. they will just repeatedly state that diving is as safe as bowling. I don't think so.

 

[Doppler]

snuggle once bubbled...


SNIPPED

ANY diver who gets their c card can at any time go into the water and have something go wrong..thats just the way it is..you can go thru the motions a 99 times with no problems but on the ....

SNIPPED

Snuggle... something that was said to me when I first started cave diving was that an equipment failure underwater will not kill you -- with the exception of your tank valve blowing a hole in the back of your head -- however, your reaction to an equipment failure and your lack of planning may kill you or get your buddies seriously hurt.

Divers need to learn to control their reactions and need to know how to deal with something hitting the fan while diving... that only comes with experience and direction, either from an instructor or other mentor...

It sounds to me as though you have resigned yourself to the inevitability of injury because of equipment failure. I refuse to accept that. Equipment failure is a damn nuisance, but not cause to panic and die!

If it is a fact that people react poorly to "the unexpected," the issue is poor training. That's something we can do something about.

 

[SneakyB'tard]

It amazes me how people who have never been in the role of an instructor seem to feel they can can dictate how to teach scuba.

I must disagree with this comment. I agree with the rest of the paragraph.

Quality as it relates to Scuba Instruction,

Quality is the totality of features and characteristics of a product or service that bears on its ability to meet a stated or implied need of a customer.

The ability to define accurately the customers needs related to design, performance, price, safety, delivery, and other business activities and processes will place an instructor ahead of their competitors in the diving market.

The student is the customer.
The instructor is the service provider.

The customer will dictate how the service provider operates so long as it does not compromise the safety and intergity of the those involved.

It amazes me how peole that do not understand the dynamics of consumers and business enter the diving industry. Perhaps that is why we see so many scuba businesses fail.

 

[SneakyB'tard]

I agree Doppler.

I feel that if a person is does not have the ability to be calm and cool while doing critical problem solving tasks, they are not ready to move into diving.

The only piece equipment you need to be dependant on is the one placed between your ears. If it fails you- you are guaranteed to have a bad day.

 

[eagleray2003]

The Tick
You seem very eager to hang the instructor who certified him at Open Water level.
But correct me if I'm wrong under Padi standards is it not a requirement to check out any student's skill level prior to doing the dives? Seems to me the store arranging the course should also schedule the skill assesmnet?
Are instructors not taught at the IDC that you should not add to the stress level of divers in training? I think site selection would fall under this?
No matter who you blame we all agree that this as most accidents could have been avoided and to lessen the risk of future accidents I beleive we must find out what went wrong here,it's a no win here for anyone but we can and should learn from this.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yes it is a PADI requirement to asses a divers skills to determine if they are prepared to undergo the training they are beginning and to provide (or offer) and to remediate if required. However much of the decission as to wether or not a students skills are up to par are subjective and left to the judgement of the instructor.

I doubt that there is anything here for most of us to learn. There isn't any magic going on here. As I said in another thread it's all basic stuff and the basics are what's lacking.

 

[Chet]

I am sad to here of this accident.
I am not sure why there is all this talk about the O/W instructor who did this persons open water course. Eagle you are right, it is required to perform a review before the AOW even if the diver was trained by the same instructor(Scuba Review). The extent of the review is questionable. So the store and the instructor are responsible for this and it is at the end up to the instructor.
Hopefully the facts will come out and until this time this is all speculation.

I agree Doppler.

I feel that if a person is does not have the ability to be calm and cool while doing critical problem solving tasks, they are not ready to move into diving.

Sneak, everyone has to start somewhere. I will put my money on good leadership and store & instructor safety to reduce the risk, then putting it solely on the student(clam & cool is very important) a balance is very important.
Remember we where all newbies at sometime.
Be Safe
Chet

 

[Dan MacKay]

eagleray2003 once bubbled...
The Tick
You seem very eager to hang the instructor who certified him at Open Water level.
But correct me if I'm wrong under Padi standards is it not a requirement to check out any student's skill level prior to doing the dives? Seems to me the store arranging the course should also schedule the skill assesmnet?
Are instructors not taught at the IDC that you should not add to the stress level of divers in training? I think site selection would fall under this?
No matter who you blame we all agree that this as most accidents could have been avoided and to lessen the risk of future accidents I beleive we must find out what went wrong here,it's a no win here for anyone but we can and should learn from this.

I am not trying to specifically hang the student's OW instructor. What I am trying to get across from this tragedy is an industry wide problem. Everyone who touched this student had a hand in it. I only pick on the certifying instructor as in any accident analysis this is the the first link in the accident chain. I remain unconvinced that his OW instructor did not see something during his 40 hours of instruction that a PADI course is supposed to provide that would have clued him/her in that chess was probably a better sport for this lad. Likely due to the fact that the instructor did not have the gumption and/or experience to tell a student that this is not the sport for him and that it would bruise his ego this student obviously passed with marginal skills from an already marginal course minimum. Result = Death.

Think about this for a moment. How many of us have done our OW certification is conditions worse than this. I certainly did. Not much of an option. Vis was nil (mostly due to our lack of skill) and most instruction was done by touch contact. The essential skill of reg recovery had been practiced enough before hand that it was not an issue and more that a few regs were accidentally dislodged during the OW sessions that were found replaced and no one bolted. I will conceed that we were in 20' of water.

My point is that this is were we live and dive. This is our enviroment. I wholeheated agree with one of the other posters that said that we should train where we dive. If this was an advanced site (I do not know as I have not dove there) then I think that it is entirely appropriate to dive there. If we do not train in 'advanced' conditions under supervision then where do we learn the coping skills? Should we not train cave divers in caves or wreck divers in wrecks? We live with siltouts every day around here.

This diver should not have been certified in the first place. This diver should not have been on a AOW in the second and the supervising instructor should have had this skill to cope with this emergency in the third. This accident began the day this guy signed up for his OW and the framework of the training agency involved (which is not dissimilar to most) allowed this person to coddled along to his eventual and tragic end. Now that I have thrown everyone under the bus is it a little clearer?

 

[thrive]

Just a quick note to everyone. The original dive shop refused to put this student through the AOW on the basis that he should get some dives in first. He was asked to get more comfortable before taking the AOW.

 

[snuggle]

good point doppler but i never said anything about equipment failure..all i said is that anything can happen even to the most experienced diver..as for myself am i scared everytime i go in thewater of my equipment failing?no not at all..the thought isnt even on my mind to tell you the truth..you go on to say that equipment failure can be a nuisance but doesnt mean that the diver has to die..your right and theres no doubt that panic causes a lot of deaths..some divers can handle the panic alot better then others..thats something that will never change because its a fact..it shouldnt be that way but it is..and mike goodpoint as always but again why are we blaming the instructors everytime a diver dies..why is the responsibility always on their shoulders..there are many good instructors out there so lets not lump them all together..