Diver dies in Islamorada

[knowone]

It's interesting to hear how many different techniques, policies and procedures the different posters have offered, and that is a beautiful thing. Dive safely, however you define that as an individual or a group. While many good thoughts were posted, it is important to remember that there is no one way to dive, one rule for fins on/off, one standard for buddy re-organizing mid-dive...different situations call for different approaches, what works on one boat may not be best on another, no current on a dive versus strong current tends to change things.....just use your head, act prudently and enjoy your dives!

Herein lies the problem.

 

[knowone]

Somehow I missed this post yesterday but will address it now in relation to this incident. If you are fine with this arrangement all well and good. I personally would not be. If you are diving with a buddy and decide to end the dive the dive is over for you and your buddy until you are safely on the boat or on shore. If he should elect to continue the dive solo fine. But too many incidents have occurred when buddies get separated in benign conditions that have resulted in dead divers to risk it. And I never feel safe with "the group" because chances are unless I know them none of them are worth a squat if I have a problem.

I do know that if a Dm/Guide/Instructor is leading a dive and CHOOSES to escort a diver to the surface it then becomes more than just seeing them to the boat. Her buddy could and should have accompanied her, which by the way would have been the right thing to do. Then the instructor and the buddy could have continued the dive once the diver who was having difficulties was safely on board. This is one of the results of the discussion of always diving with a buddy but is seldom put into practice in OW classes. How many of you have seen divers being led around single file or in a group and have no idea who was buddied up with who? I'd bet most of you have.

My classes require buddies to stay together at all times from the first night in the pool swimming and snorkeling. If somebody gets a little carried away and thinks the swim is a race and laps their assigned buddy gues who is going to get back with their buddy and do an extra lap or two as a penalty for leaving their buddy. I don't give rat's butt if the DM/ Guide/ Whatever says it's ok I'll take him/her back you do not leave your buddy if you are truly diving as buddies. I do dive solo. Alot. But when I am with someone I am with them from the time we get into the water until we get out. Because it is that one time when everything seems ok that you say you're going up and will be fine that they turn bad in a second and he is now a widower. Not worth it.

Otherwise it is an agreed upon same ocean/lake/ quarry dive where we will meet up at such and such a time and are solely responsible for ourselves. That the instructor in this case did not make sure the diver was safely on the boat in those condtions, especially if there was only one other person the boat, is irresponsible and inexcusable. If there was more than one person on the boat and that person was not prepared, trained, or equipped to assist a diver who was having trouble at the surface while others were in the water is also irresponsible and inexcusable.

Divers should be able to take care of themselves. But if a situation arises where one cannot they have a right to expect that someone who is in a position to help will help. If this was not the case then the crew should have told everyone before going out that if they get in trouble to not expect any assistance. I would not have gone out in those conditions with only one person left on the boat. Calm, flat seas with no wind- OK.

But where there are 5-7 ft seas I would expect that if I surfaced and got into trouble there would at least be someone to toss me a line or assist me to the trail line. And again had her buddy done the right thing and stayed with her he may have been able to assist. This was a CF big time. Piss poor buddy procedures, lack of judgment on everyone's part, most likely insufficient training for this dive in these conditions, and on and on. As a result someone is dead. Again. And it did not have to happen.

I'd like to know why the instructor/guide thought it was ok to separate the buddies in a situation like this. It could have been a valuable lesson in proper buddy procedures and dive planning. Instead it is a lesson in funeral planning.

Here. Here. Just learnt how to quote, and I want The Lamenta to doff his cigar to me. Without fins one is an apple.

 

[Chris Brown Tech]

Seriously Chris, with the exception of a few caving accidents, the investigation never seems to get made public..... Speculation is all that's left.

Not always the case Brian. I know of plenty of Keys fatalities where the cause of death was established and reported.

My issue is with those that determine 'facts' about an accident based on hearsay and then draw conclusions as to the probable cause.

 

[deepstops]

Not always the case Brian. I know of plenty of Keys fatalities where the cause of death was established and reported.

My issue is with those that determine 'facts' about an accident based on hearsay and then draw conclusions as to the probable cause.

I'm not seeing these reports. When you get them, how about posting them?

The only one I've ever seen was the triple fatality on the SG.

 

[ScoobaDood]

No, I'm not saying the captain was alone on the boat (you should read my original post). I'm just saying the last 20 or so times I dove with Key Dives the captain was the only person on the boat when the divers were in the water, other than the occasional sea sick diver. So jumping to the conclusion that there was a "deck crew" that should have been ready to jump in the water was not an assumption that should be made. I don't think any assumptions should be made in this case, this incident is still under investigation. Trying to analyze any event and place blame from the information in a newspaper article and TV news broadcast is ridiculous. Even after the investigation is done the news often has trouble getting it right (this I do know for a fact). I have no idea if the diver was conscious or not, but when you are going to rescue someone that is something that has to be considered, because many times if someone is in need of rescue they are either panicked to the point of fighting for air, unresponsive, or unconscious. Any of which makes it dangerous to make a solo rescue especially when that person has to be moved onto a pitching boat deck, which would risk the captains safety, and thus the rest of the divers safety.

Just my $.02 on the matter, but... Because we know

it is difficult for one person to pull an unconcious person onboard

it is not uncommon to encounter an emergency situation during a dive (instructional or otherwise)

I believe there should be someone standing by on the deck ready to hit the water at the drop of a hat to save a life as needed.

I have read and re-read the post and I don't believe its an assumption that there was someone standing by to provide such assistance, but rather an assertion that there should have been. I can tell you right now, that any DiveOp that operates with everyone in the water with the exception of the captain, is a DiveOp that I would not use. I understand that this seems to be the norm for a number of DiveOps from what I am reading here, but that just isn't the way I would want to dive.

I would want to know that should something happen to myself or another diver, there is a trained professional ready and available to jump in and provide assistance immediatly. To be honest I am really shocked that this is not a requirement.

I learned a great deal in my OW class, and had a very knowledgable instructor, but I have learned even more about being safe by reading this forum.

As always, just my $.02

 

[deepstops]

I believe there should be someone standing by on the deck ready to hit the water at the drop of a hat to save a life as needed.

I can tell you right now, that any DiveOp that operates with everyone in the water with the exception of the captain, is a DiveOp that I would not use. I understand that this seems to be the norm for a number of DiveOps from what I am reading here, but that just isn't the way I would want to dive.

As always, just my $.02

Most (not all!) six pack boats here in S FL are run by a captain and have no DM aboard. There's no USCG requirement to do so and it's not financially feasible for them to pay for one.

 

[ScoobaDood]

Right after they get an OW card. While it's never OK to leave un-certified divers alone in the water, specialty classes are a little different (AOW/etc.) in that the divers are supposedly qualified to dive without supervision. The instructor can certainly say "class is over, but you can continue diving if you wish".

OTOH, in this case, the diver was obviously having some sort of issue since the dive was abandoned early, and in this case it would be prudent to make sure that she got on the boat safely, regardless of whether or not it was a class.

Terry

First, let me say I am very new to diving. I have not even begun to consider AOW as I am still practicing all that I learned in OW, so please excuse my question if it is noobish.

I fully agree that at the end of OW you are certified and should be able to dive with your buddy with no supervision. The thing is I would think that in the case of deep dive training (OW is <60') there are situations (narc'd, etc) that might come up that if you were left unattended could prove to be a serious problem.

Again, I have not done any training beyond my OW certification so I have no idea how the AOW class is run.

 

[ScoobaDood]

Most (not all!) six pack boats here in S FL are run by a captain and have no DM aboard. There's no USCG requirement to do so and it's not financially feasible for them to pay for one.

While I can certainly understand that because the USCG does not require it, the DiveOp is in compliance, this is just not a situation I would want to be in, in compliance or not.

Now I have no idea wha the cost would be to the DiveOp to have a DM sitting on deck for rescues, but I would have to imagine it is much cheaper than the payout should a Negligence suit be lost.

It sounds like the DiveOp was in compliance with USCG regulations, but in my opinion, not providing the resources necessary to ensure a rescue could be made should it be necessary. I personally would be looking for a DiveOp that provided at a minimum a second trained body on deck ready to assist in an emergency. Thanks to this thread, I have a string of questions I will be asking any DiveOp I am looking to use before I book with them

Another $.02

 

[diverrex]

I think I've dived with maybe 8 - 10 different ops in the Caribbean, none have ever had more than person remaining on the boat while the dive was going on. And quite often it's just a fairly young person, that may not even dive, and I wouldn't necessarily count on them having any rescue or emergency training. That's just the way it is.

And if you get narced, you won't be by the time you get to the surface.

 

[mbwilliamn]

Chris, I didn't get farther before I had to call BS. This forum is NOT for sending condolences. It IS for speculating. It is NOT for laying blame. It IS for learning, relearning and reinforcing lessons. What really happened is not as important as rethinking what could have happened and how to avoid or deal with many possible issues.

Speculation is not helpful, although I understand the desire to do so.

Unless you have read the Sheriffs report and seen the medical examiners report also, you cant really have any viable comment.

This dive operator has been around a long time and runs a quality operation. Please await the outcome of the investigation before discussing what happened.

Condolences to the family