Diver Died In West Palm Beach, Fl.

[Saltwater Junky]

A very sad incident. Have there been any new facts released?

 

[Iain Thysse]

I have to take issue with the idea of "The problem would be if you were in contact with the patient as the current would then flow from the pad, through the patient, into you and down onto the deck causing you to have the full extent of the current and possibly doing the same to your heart as you were hoping for your patient."

I don't see how that can happen from a battery operated AED. Where would the electrical path from the patient through the deck then back to the AED be?

The path for electrical current would be from one paddle to the other not to the deck of the boat, right? If you placed your hand between the paddles while touching the boat deck ( assuming metal, not fiberglass) then I could see how you could get a shock.

I'm not stating this as a fact but rather a question.

Electrical current will follow the path of least resistance, so it is always trying to go to earth. it will flow from 1 paddle to the other normaly, but if you are touching the patient it will flow from the patient to you and then to earth (sea). I am not a electrical engineer, so I can't tell you the reason, but I am a paramedic and have seen it first hand, so it does definatly belt you.

 

[Randy43068]

Electrical current will follow the path of least resistance, so it is always trying to go to earth. it will flow from 1 paddle to the other normaly, but if you are touching the patient it will flow from the patient to you and then to earth (sea). I am not a electrical engineer, so I can't tell you the reason, but I am a paramedic and have seen it first hand, so it does definatly belt you.

I am an engineer, that's why I'm questioning this. An AED is battery operated thereby has no connection to earth ground.

I can understand some current flowing from the patient to a conductive surface, say a steel boat deck, or a metal hospital table so if you touched the person being shocked and touched the table or metal deck at the same time I can see where one could get a shock.

Also if the patient is laying on a wet fiberglass deck some current could flow from the closest paddle to you, through the patient then through the wet surface and then through the person touching the patient completing the circuit.

I think my argument comes from discussing this with a hospital nurse once. She said the same thing, don't touch the patient being shocked. It's probably good practice, but my argument was that no shock would happen if you were not touching the table the patient was on. Which I believe to be true.

However:

Everything changes when on a wet or metal boat deck.
After giving it some thought, I can see how you could get a shock when the patient would be lying on a wet boat deck or if the boat deck was metal.

Sorry for the HIJACK...

 

[FritzCat66]

Hey all, I don't mean to hijack your hijack, but getting back to the original incident for a moment...

I was diving the Deep Obsession that day. We set out for our afternoon dive a little early, and were geared up after our 10-minute warning for a negative-buoyancy drop over Governor's Walk (I think that's the name... series of drug-runner boats).

Anyway, just before we were about to get wet, Captain Zach heard the radio call from the Narcosis regarding the diver. Being close by, we put our dive on hold and rushed over to help pick up the Narcosis divers, since their boat had to speed back to the dock.

It was an interesting experience, watching for bubbles and picking up some very confused Narcosis divers. One other dive boat was also assisting, sorry I don't recall which one.

Between the two boats, we picked up all the divers, verifying names over the radio. The Narcosis eventually sped back out, and we transferred the divers back to their boat via the water, and we proceeded with our dives, a little late but happy to have helped.

Why are these details worth recounting? Because I was impressed by how much these supposed competing operations quickly pulled together to assist when needed. There was a lot of instantaneous coordination between all parties involved, and that meant no Narcosis diver had to float on the surface wondering where their boat was. The operators all behaved professionally, and that's worth noting.

As for us divers... yeah, we were delayed but we got our dives, and an interesting story to tell as well. I'm just sorry it ended badly for the one diver.

>*< Fritz

 

[III]

I was one of the divers you guys picked up. Were you the guy running around going, I see bubbles, no wait never mind, oh, look I see bubbles, I think.

just playing w/ya fritz, was def an interesting trip

 

[leapfrog]

I was a YMCA instructor and held classes for a couple years. In that time, and we are only talking about a 1/2 dozen classes, I observed a total of two female students exhibit distress in the pool and one woman panic in open water. The symptoms resembled a heart attack or extreme fright, or both showing hyperventilation, collapse and confusion. There was nothing wrong with the air supply or equipment. I insisted on, and got, additional opinions from physicians on all three. Nothing wrong (normal exams). Eventually, all certified. One drowned while on a charter and the others went on to dive without any further incident that I am aware of. In that time, there was also one male who panicked in open water. This incident did not resemble a heart attack, more like he had been hit on the head, and I was able to help him straighten out. He graduated without further incident. All four were in their twenties-thirties agewise.

Quite a few comments have been made on the thread about the deceased diver's anxiety or possible panic situation. I have taken some articles by Dr. Ernest Campbell on Scubadoc's Diving Medicine as the basis for the information on this post. I hope this helps.

"Anxiety is a normal human emotion we all experience when we face threatening or difficult situations. Associated with the secretion of adrenalin, fear or anxiety can help us avoid dangerous situations or get out of them. It can make us alert and it can spur us to deal with a threat or other problem rather than simply avoiding it (i.e., the "fight or flight" reaction). However, if feelings of foreboding become too strong or last too long, they can hold us back from many normal activities.

In abnormal situations, anxiety is manifested by apprehension and dread, though it cannot be attached to a clearly identifiable stimulus. Anxiety can be accompanied by worried feelings, tiredness, tension, restlessness, loss of concentration, irritability and insomnia. The physical effects of anxiety can range from irregular heartbeat, sweating, muscle tension and pain, heavy, rapid breathing, dizziness, faintness, indigestion and diarrhea, and they're produced by the effects of increased adrenalin.

People who are experiencing extreme anxiety can often mistake these signs and symptoms for evidence of serious physical illness, and worry about this can aggravate the symptoms.

A more intense form of anxiety is panic, a sudden, unexpected but powerful surge of fear. Panic can cause a wholesale flight from the immediate situation, a reaction that is especially dangerous for scuba divers. A diver who experiences panic at depth is subject to near-drowning, lung overexpansion injuries and death.

In susceptible people a heightened awareness of potential but definite dangers, complicated by a normal anxiety of being underwater, can cause a phobic anxiety state. The diver may then develop an actual fear of descending into the water. Some divers experience this while learning to dive, but other stronger motivating factors -- finishing the class, spousal, parental or peer approval, an unwillingness to appear fearful to anyone else -- can temporarily override their fears.

An overreactive anxiety state usually occurs in response to a mishap, such as a dive mask flooding with water. This may cause the diver to panic unnecessarily and behave irrationally. Often, this results in emergency ascents with the attendant dangers, frantic grabs for air supplies and lack of concern for the safety of others. This reaction is seen more often in those divers who have an above-normal tendency toward anxiety.

Episodes of panic or near-panic may explain many recreational diving accidents and the cause of some diving fatalities. Evidence also shows that individuals who have a high level of underlying anxiety are more likely to have greater responses when exposed to stresses, and, hence, this sub-group of the diving population will experience an increased level of risk. In a recent survey, more than half of divers reported experiencing at least one panic or near-panic episode.

Panic attacks are not restricted to beginning divers; experienced scuba divers with hundreds of logged dives sometimes experience panic for no apparent reason. In such cases, it is believed that panic occurs because divers lose sight of familiar objects, become disoriented and experience sensory deprivation.

Trait anxiety is a psychological phenomenon regarded as a stable or enduring feature of personality; state anxiety is situational, or transitory. Individuals who score high on measures of trait anxiety are more likely to have an increased state of anxiety and panic during scuba activities, and they are at potentially greater risk than those scoring in the "normal" range.

Many dive physicians feel that such individuals probably should not dive. It has been found that interventions such as biofeedback, hypnosis, imagery and relaxation have not been effective in reducing anxiety responses associated with panic attacks.

Individuals with a history of high anxiety and panic episodes should probably be identified if possible and counseled during scuba training classes about the potential risks.

In determining whether a person with anxiety, phobias and panic attacks should be certified as fit to dive, each case should be evaluated on its own merits, including types of drugs required (if any), response to medication and the amount of time free of anxiety and phobia.

Individuals who score high on measures of trait anxiety most probably should not dive, but, if they choose to dive, they should be carefully monitored and fully informed of the risks, with special consideration to one's decision-making ability and responsibility to other divers.

In all cases, prospective divers should fully disclose their conditions and medications to the dive instructor and certifying agency. They should bear in mind the safety of their potential dive buddies, dive instructors, divemasters and other individuals who are affected by diving incidents."

 

[alibi 2]

I wouldn't say that because an instructor was with her that all that could be done was done. Many a person goes straight for that instructor card - doesn't mean they have a clue about diving or real experience. It just means they have their card. I have been with a few that tout they are instructors, personally, they probably shouldn't tout that until they have some diving under their belt, and they quite knocking everything with their fins, but hey that is just my lil opinion.

Seems in this case it may not have mattered so much.

tragic for all..but just because an instructor is on board doesnt mean he is in charge of her..she was a certified diver and in charge of herself..when there is an emergancy at sea it is the Captian and crew that are in command of the rescue efforts...the only time the instructor could have a problem is if they can show that the woman had a problem and should never have been certified...

 

[sea nmf]

I went diving with a friend that had been out of the water for about a year. We were in a lake, wearing dry suits. As soon as we got in the water and descended a few feet, she had us go up, saying, "I can't breathe" I noticed quite a bit of anxiety and tried to calm her but she would not calm down. I decided to abort the dive.

From the little bit in the referenced articles, it sounds similar. Can you be scared to death?

Is it just me, or does that statement that she deflated her BC sound fishy? I understand spitting out the reg, as that appears to be a common thing. But, in the midst of this issue, take the time to deflate the BC? Hmmmmm. I wasn't there, but it just seems odd.

 

[John_B]

Is it just me, or does that statement that she deflated her BC sound fishy? I understand spitting out the reg, as that appears to be a common thing. But, in the midst of this issue, take the time to deflate the BC? Hmmmmm. I wasn't there, but it just seems odd.

As was said earlier, if the rental BC was a stab jacket (which is likely) its entirely possible she felt pressure in her chest and deflated the BC thinking that was the cause.

 

[Missdirected]

Is it just me, or does that statement that she deflated her BC sound fishy? I understand spitting out the reg, as that appears to be a common thing. But, in the midst of this issue, take the time to deflate the BC? Hmmmmm. I wasn't there, but it just seems odd.

It is not that she "took the time". That implies she had the coherent conscience thought of "hmmm, I am going to deflate". She was in panic. People pull, grab, kick, bite, press/depress, etc. They aren't thinking calmy or rationally once they have hit that point.