Diver deceased at Manatee Springs, 2/19?

[MikeFerrara]

I'm deep diver certified but this coming spring I plan to dive the caverns in the cenotes in Tulum.

What do you mean by "deep diver certified"? AND what does that have to do with cavern diving.

I have all necessary equipment but most importantly I'll be doing it with a full cave certified instructor and even then I won't be going farther than the reaper sign.

But are you planning on conducting all the line drills on land and in OW as cavern training standards require?

I think that if someone is not trained and qualified that person should not venture alone (alone being with other unqualified buddies) in any overhead environment.

And if you do it with someone who is qualified it becomes sort of a trust-me dive.

I made this a personnal rule and it was in good part because of what I read on SB, advice given by those who have experience in that field and who have been generous enough to share it, thank you.

My personal rule is to reasonably apply the rules of accident analysis, the first of which, is to have the training.

 

[Belmont]

Thank you Mike for your reply,

1) I took a Deep Diver course from IANTD after my Padi AOW. That was meant to say that I have no cavern training. During the last course I took my instructor also introduced me to the DIR philosophy.

2) Yes, even tough my goal is not to be certified I will follow all the necessary pre dive formation with my instructor. I might say this will be a well formed/informed tourist dive. It could lead me to taking the formal course at another time.

3) Are not all the first dives with a qualified instructor somewhat trust-me dives?

4) Refer to #1 above

 

[Water Bug]

overhead environment can turn on you very quickly, no matter how harmless it may look

if you're not trained, it can easily be fatal

I had a few additional experiences while diving this area - particluarly King's Spring. After the countless number of hours I spent reading threads in this forum (many comments made by those whom just replied to my post ) I feel far more educated. Enough to know that you don't know what you don't know...
I plan to share those expereinces in a sperate thread as apparantly this one has been around awhile... in hopes of learning more. I always find myself in the "insta-buddy" situation and want to learn to minimize risk.
Thanks to all for their postings in this forum as my eyes are wide open. I found all threads educational but I am eager to learn about all the "dives survived" and "near misses" that are all referred to but not expanded upon in the future.

 

[Crazy Fingers]

You know, it's funny how on one thread people will tell an OW diver to enjoy the cenotes; they're great fun and wonderful dives. Then on another thread they're told that they're going to die if they get in one.

 

[Rick Murchison]

You know, it's funny how on one thread people will tell an OW diver to enjoy the cenotes; they're great fun and wonderful dives. Then on another thread they're told that they're going to die if they get in one.

Sort of... maybe... but not quite...
It's akin to the cautions that experienced dry cavers give to untrained, inexperienced folks who may be tempted to venture into a cave on their own. "Don't do it, you'll get lost, hurt, or worse," while at the same time encouraging a trip to Carlsbad Caverns or Ruby Falls.
I have no problem recommending the guided "Open Water level" Cenote dives that I've actually been on to open water divers, while at the same time advising divers with no overhead training to stay out of overhead environments until they get the training.
All that said, I do think that there are guided Cenote dives that are pushing too far, and that it's only a matter of time before they have a mishap with an open water diver and a blown o-ring or failed high pressure seat...
Rick

 

[H2Andy]

You know, it's funny how on one thread people will tell an OW diver to enjoy the cenotes; they're great fun and wonderful dives. Then on another thread they're told that they're going to die if they get in one.

can't comment on those threads, since i haven't read them

but it makes sense to take any overhead environment seriously and think the dive through, and not let the deceptive beauty lure you past your point of competence. if your competence is zero, then diving with a cave instructor (or an experienced cave diver) will be a good introduction; if your competence level is OW with a few overhead dives in easy spots (i.e. the Ginnie Ballroom, Paradise Springs) then stick to those places; if your competence level is cavern, then stick to cavern, etc.

i do have a bit of a problem with OW divers going into the Ballroom or Paradise without any cavern training or without an experienced diver with them to brief them and keep them company. but ... those spots are open to the OW community because they are relatively easy dives, and it's a good place to get started ... ideally, you would dive there first with an experienced cave diver ... but .... anyway ... it is what it is

however, the syphon at Manatee is not such a place by any stretch of the imagination

so, i don't have a problem with OW divers diving overhead, under certain conditions (for example, in the Ballroom or at Paradise ... or certain of the Cenotes, if i knew more about them); on the other hand, i try to remind them that they are overhead, and that they need to think and dive differently

 

[Water Bug]

So if your not trained in cavern/cave/cenotes diving but are with a guide or expereinced diver then it is acceptable to do overheard dives that you wouldn't normally be qualified for?
I ask only because I did a night dive at King's Spring Cavern with a guide which felt more like a cave dive then cavern. Was I really only taking the "trust me" approach to a stranger?

 

[Rick Murchison]

So if your not trained in cavern/cave/cenotes diving but are with a guide or expereinced diver then it is acceptable to do overheard dives that you wouldn't normally be qualified for?
I ask only because I did a night dive at King's Spring Cavern with a guide which felt more like a cave dive then cavern. Was I really only taking the "trust me" approach to a stranger?

There are no "caverns" at night. The lack of a "natural light" zone turns them all into caves...
As for your specific guided dive, it's sorta hard to judge without seeing just what was done and how...
Rick

 

[MikeFerrara]

3) Are not all the first dives with a qualified instructor somewhat trust-me dives?

No, because, in theory, the requisite skills and knowledge have been obtained and tested before the dive.

 

[H2Andy]

So if your not trained in cavern/cave/cenotes diving but are with a guide or expereinced diver then it is acceptable to do overheard dives that you wouldn't normally be qualified for?

depends on the dive and how it's carried out

if you jump in the water with some guy who's cave certified and go diving, that's a trust me dive

if you sit down and brief the dive, taking into account your level of experience, and plan the dive to minimize your risk, and stick to the cavern zone, and have an agreed-upon emergency protocol, then that's a pretty decent way to be introduced into a lower risk overhead environment, such as the Ballroom

or even better, of course, you would take a cavern class from a competent instructor before going into any overhead, and that's what i would recommend (strongly)

I ask only because I did a night dive at King's Spring Cavern with a guide which felt more like a cave dive then cavern. Was I really only taking the "trust me" approach to a stranger?

well, as stated above, a night cavern dive is really a cave dive ... that is pushing things too far too fast ... also, the cavern at Kings Spring (i am talking about the one in Crystal River) has at least two places where, if lost, you can get in real trouble real fast ... i would not call it a low risk overhead environment, particularly at night

i did a day guided tour of that cavern, and basically, i felt "safe" because i could see the exits, and i figured i could make a swim for the surface and be ok

no kidding... that was my emergency plan, and i wasn't briefed otherwise, and i didn't know any better... i was basically a dive fatality waiting to happen

i am very lucky nothing went wrong. another time, i went into the chimney room there, and got stuck ... with no buddy ...

i was very lucky that time too, and it scared me enough to get overhead training