Diver and/or Instructor Renewal Program

Who should have to renew? and what level are you?

  • Renewal for Rec Instructor and Rec Diver Certification

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Renewal for Tec Instructor Only

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Renewal for Tec Diver Only

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Renewal for Rec Instructor Only

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Renewal for Rec Diver Only

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    47
  • Poll closed .

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Tec diver and DM.

I voted for Instructor Re-Qualification, but I don't think that needs to mean anything more than ensuring that the instructor has been "sufficiently active" over whatever time-period.

Skills - not just dive skills, but instructing skills - are definitely a "use 'em or lose 'em" sort of thing.
 
I am a rec diver and strongly believe that there should be some kind of recertification for both divers and instructors at all levels.
 
I am a Commercial Diver and a certified Divemaster.

Renewal for any level of diving certification below the Divemaster/Dive Con/Dive Leader level would just move your new student base to the agency that does not require it. It would be rediculous to try and mandate a renewal for training in a "recreational" field of endever, especially one that has been without such restriction since the beganing of certifications.

With all the "do it yourself" divers out there now, how are you going to enforce it? Anyone can buy a compressor, cylinder and rig.
 
So you saying no renewal because someone has to do dives they are certified for but may have lapseed on their skills and this would push them into diving something they are not ready for? I thing that is the whole point is to keep the people who can not keep up on their skills from thinking they can just jump in and do a 200' wreck or something. I believe as far as instructors you would want an active instructor that is doing the dives he or she is teaching. With this renewal, the diver would not lose X level if they could not keep it current and would not have to retake X level course, but would need to do a refresher of some sort if their cert a X level lapsed.

No, I'm saying that the current renewal philosophy of the first agency that issued expiration dates on C-cards is flawed.

Most instructors have the common sense to not teach a 200 foot trimix or wreck course when they aren't 100% capable and practiced. I do not know any tech instructor in my circle of friends who would do such a thing. When I had been diving nearly every day in the Bahamas for over 2 months with another cave instructor, she and I did two practice dives in Ginnie's ballroom, practicing stage drops and pick ups, and emergency drills before cave diving in Florida because we switched to drysuits, steel tanks, and stage bottles from wetsuits, AL80's and no need for stage bottles - just to go diving.

Quotas to teach your highest level courses such as Tech 2 or Tech 3 or Trimix 2 or Full Cave, means that an instructor is going to actively recruit people to take classes at these levels. My friend, Jim Wyatt, a popular North Florida cave diving instructor, believes that only cavern divers should be actively recruited because cavern is a "safety" course. To push divers into full cave or into greater deco and overhead dives to maintain a teaching status is almost irresponsible if you look at it from a safety and lifeguarding perspective. Most every agency asks for some sort of professional quota from instructors to remain active. The larger the quota, the more problematic it will be. While teaching quotas exist to maintain proficiency, what happens if the only students I get this year to take trimix 2 are not ready in my opinion? Do I run the class and fail them just to have taught? Do I run it and pass them to increase my cert numbers with the agency to enhance my career? Quotas are a double edge sword and I do not feel that lopping off the heads of students with the one blade is a good way to promote safe scuba diving.

An active diver or instructor are those who are actively diving and teaching. I would say that a diver making 150 recreational level dives a year is more "active" than a diver who makes only makes 25 Tech 1 dives every 3 years - especially if that diver practices bottle and deco switch skills routinely. Depending upon where some divers live, making 25 Tech 1 dives may be tough. However, when you start talking Tech 2 and Tech 3, that becomes very difficult. For many, they are forced to dive deep when the opportunity presents and that can be problematic for the individual and their buddies. The "safety" of proficiency is canceled out by the risk of diving when one doesn't feel up to the task, but hopes to get it together underwater. That is not a good scenario.

This industry keeps demanding more and more of instructors. I haven't even mentioned the financial burden placed on instructors for trimix and travel and time away from being able to bring home the bacon during the height of the dive season to meet quotas. It could take a month and over $6,000 in gas plus travel to stay active as a Tech 2 or Tech 3 instructor. Go into the public and private schools and tell the teachers that you have a great deal for them. No salaries. No benefits. No paid sick days or holidays. They'll have to spend several grand every 3 or 4 years on continuing ed, and they can only pass students with a 3.5 GPA or B average and above and each student must also pass the physical fitness test. If not, the student can't take class next senester and the teacher won't get paid. Now, you'll be left with only a few teachers who love to teach. Those who love to teach are often passionate about it and keep learning. They probably need very little encouragement to do their best and to be at their best.

I don't think that a quota system is going to solve the problem people are hoping it solves. I think people are wondering why there are so many poor divers and instructors and wondering how to prevent the death and injury among an inactive diving population. Poor instructors will tyeach 1 person or 10 people or 100 people a year poorly. Poor divers will make 1, 10, 25 or 250 dives a year poorly. Numbers won't solve the issues they are trying to solve. Higher standards and better training will. Great training is also not insured by numbers. In fact, I'd say that instructors with the lowest number of certs and the least number of courses at the highest levels of diving might be some of the best instructors.

Quotas are an attempt to fix a skills problem that may not exist with a paper solution.
 
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Has lack of recurrancy been identified as a measureable cause of diving accidents? If so, full speed ahead, but if this is a program to funnel money to instructors, LDSs and Dive Agencies, nah baby nah.

From what I read, requiring periodic medical certificates might reduce diving accidents considerably.
 
Why re certify divers if the agency standards for original certification are low to begin with? Many people complain that the competency of divers is minimal as it is. Since most divers are vacation divers, they are more likely to get re-certified from the same agency that originally certified them. What makes anyone think that the renewal would be better than the original.

I have heard this so many times on this board that diving is not about certification. Its about the experience. A diver has to dive to get better, no stamp on a card is going to make them better. I see a renewal as another opportunity for the agency to charge more money to reissue a card with an extended date.
 
Has lack of recurrancy been identified as a measureable cause of diving accidents? If so, full speed ahead, but if this is a program to funnel money to instructors, LDSs and Dive Agencies, nah baby nah.

From what I read, requiring periodic medical certificates might reduce diving accidents considerably.

As I recall, you could eliminate 90% of the fatalities if you barred divers over 40. So, if safety is the concern, age is the problem.

I didn't vote as I have no interest in the poll. However, I'm not signing up for recertifying rec divers and that's all I'll ever be.

Richard
 
I am a rec diver. I think only pros should be required to recertify. A real "refresher" course for rec divers who may only dive once every two years would be helpful.
 
I am currently a REC diver. I think instructors need to have a more formal qualification and requalification standard. There should be only one standard and not a loose set of unclear qualifications. There also should be one agency that has the ultimate responsibility for all instructors as well as divers. The issue I see it as it stands now is there really isn’t anyone responsible for any qualification and there is not a set of standards that all must follow. We say we do, but if any instructor do or does not follow these they are now referred to as “guidelines” and not formal standards. I would think a continuing educational requirement would also be in order, and a formal requalification every 5 years. This would give everyone time for business and fun diving
 
I am currently a REC diver. I think instructors need to have a more formal qualification and requalification standard. There should be only one standard and not a loose set of unclear qualifications. There also should be one agency that has the ultimate responsibility for all instructors as well as divers. The issue I see it as it stands now is there really isn’t anyone responsible for any qualification and there is not a set of standards that all must follow. We say we do, but if any instructor do or does not follow these they are now referred to as “guidelines” and not formal standards. I would think a continuing educational requirement would also be in order, and a formal requalification every 5 years. This would give everyone time for business and fun diving

There are formal requirements to meet to become and stay as an instructor.You really do not have a clue as to what is involved.As an example with PADI after you complete all requirements at an IDC you have to attend an IE to qualify as a instructor.At the IE the examiner is someone who has no problem failing you if you cannot make the grade.The examiner is someone who you never meet and has no interest in you if you pass or fail.Much unlike other agencys where you pay your money to the person running the program and it is the same person who qualifies you as an instructor.That person has a vested interest in you as to your passing or failing.He/she would look like a pretty poor instructor trainer if you fail,so they pass you as long as you pay the $$..
This happens more frequently than you think.A student of mine in a DM course could not meet the agency-PADI- requirements,so I failed him.He then went to Santo Domingo for a 5 day vacation and came back as a instuctor for an agency other than the one I taught under.He paid the trainer there and without any training or test he was issued a card.This cannot happen in a IE that uses examiners that are totally out of the training process.
I am for recertification of instructors who teach infrequently and some type of required refresher for people who have not dove in a while. Make it that if teach less than 10 students a year the instructor would require a refresher semi annually.It would eliminate the so-so part time instructors who teach only 5 or 10 people a year. I(t will make the cost of doing business higher..Not that they may be inept,but doing so would increase the cost to be an instructor and thereby cause them to charge a more realistic price to teach, or drop out,as their cost to maintain a instructor certification will go up.Maybe charge instructors $500. semi annually to do this,along with membership fees and insurance.Their income would go up with doing refresher classes for non pros to justify the added expense.Charge $130-$150. for a 2-3 hour refresher.Run the refresher as a private/semi private time.
They will have to charge a more realistic price to teach an ow course.I know that I rather teach a private 1 person/semi private 2 person course where I now get paid from a LDS $240.-$400. than teach a class of 6/8 people for $288..The LDS have to charge $600. for a private/$500. for a semi private class this way.
Lets start charging $500. for a standard ow course-academic and confined water portion and perhaps $400. for the 4 training dives. More for private.It would bring in students who seriously want to learn to dive and eliminate the ones who take the class -get certified-and never dive again.
 
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