Divemaster Training

[Dive Time]

sorry I missed part of your post, We do not need to dive in drysuits no sorry I thought you were saying earlier that we do and that made us bad hmmm strange you changed your mind.

Define cold water for me because 10c is pretty frisky and can case hypothermia in less than 20 minutes without proper exposure protection, hence the 7mm wetsuit.

yes we can get some heavy currents but not anywhere near yours surge can be a big issue though.

Define bad visibility for a DSD, Open Water, Rescue Diver, DM because they're bound to be able to cope with varying degrees I take it that you do not teach or lead dives? Because anyone that does will know that when you have someone that has just started diving even if confident will become very claustrophobic in less than 4-5m people like to have good visibility. i'm not saying that I won't dive there seems to have been a serious miscommunication here I shall clarify.

We're not talking about my ability as a diver we're not talking about DM's leading dives.

We're talking about making some in to the best DM they can be ie: the skill set we're not saying that they're ready to go into the world leading dives if we were this would be an internship program at worst or a new worker at best.

I hope that clarifies some of the issues we seem to be having.

I hope that helps

 

[rivers]

So you put divers through to DM but then they aren't actually ready to DM? what is the point? and 10*C isn't cold. I was doing no mask oog swim drills to a diver with gas 15m away in water that was 6*C today. now that was a bit cold on the eyes.

vis was okay though. 10m was clear, could see about vague outlines of people from 15m away

 

[Dive Time]

That's really cold 10C is cold enough for most people though hehe.

We're not saying they're not ready to be DM's of course not and yet we're not saying that they're ready to lead dives and "work" we want to give people the skills set's all of this we're going to make clear as our emphasis to the people taking part is safety that kind of the point we want to create safe responsible divers with a good level of training if we do our job right it won't take a genius to admit to themselves they need to do more dives and get additional experience before thinking they're ready this is the opposite attitude we get from interns that apply for jobs they send us CV';s that state they can do anything as a diver because they've done over 100 dives and we all know that's a joke but it's accepted to a degree if they've been interns for a summer somewhere? What needs to happen is once they become a DM and on their way to getting certified they are made aware of the dangers of being a diver / leading dives and that they do realise the real dangers around them.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 08:07 PM ----------

I hope that helps.

 

[chillyinCanada]

I'm confused. You're training your students to be the best dive masters they can be only not yet? Perhaps your course is to train your divers to the point that they can decide whether or not to take their dm training? Or is this just a very extended course perhaps more along the lines of "master diver"?

 

[Dive Time]

We're teaching them the skill set to be the best DM they can be ie: Diver with a better knowledge and skill set than an Open Water they can choose if they wish to lead dives and seek out work but our preference is they take the knowledge they gain with the DM skill set and gain more experience before deciding to lead dives.

We're looking to train them so they have a better knowledge and practical skill set to be a better diver everyone seems very hung up on DM's just leading dives and working I know a plethora of DM's that become DM's to be better divers as I stated this is an education issue not every intern or DM is fit to lead no matter how many dives they have yet we as an industry see fit to say you've completed your DM certification ok off you go??

It's plain irresponsable what we shall be doing is saying right you have the skill set of a DM and yes you can go off into the world and go try to find work but we would hope and try to explain that they need to gain more experience before taking peoples lives in to their own hands. Is this not the responsible route a DM by all rights is a safer / better diver than an open water diver right?

I hope that helps.

 

[rivers]

We're teaching them the skill set to be the best DM they can be ie: Diver with a better knowledge and skill set than an Open Water they can choose if they wish to lead dives and seek out work but our preference is they take the knowledge they gain with the DM skill set and gain more experience before deciding to lead dives.

We're looking to train them so they have a better knowledge and practical skill set to be a better diver everyone seems very hung up on DM's just leading dives and working I know a plethora of DM's that become DM's to be better divers as I stated this is an education issue not every intern or DM is fit to lead no matter how many dives they have yet we as an industry see fit to say you've completed your DM certification ok off you go??

It's plain irresponsable what we shall be doing is saying right you have the skill set of a DM and yes you can go off into the world and go try to find work but we would hope and try to explain that they need to gain more experience before taking peoples lives in to their own hands. Is this not the responsible route a DM by all rights is a safer / better diver than an open water diver right?

I hope that helps.

If someone takes a DM course and, upon completion of the course, they are not fit to lead dives or assist with classes, he/she should not have passed the course. Simple as that. Instead of shoving brand new divers through to DM, turn them into the best possible recreational (non-professional) divers they can be with this boot camp idea. Make sure they can do any and every skill neutrally buoyant and in fairly decent trim. Make sure they know how to plan their dives and have adequate gas reserves (and how to plan for an adequate gas reserve), know how to calculate their SAC rates, can launch a bag, can navigate around a dive site and find their way back to the boat/shore/exit point without the use of a guide. You have 4 weeks and 74 dives to churn out some excellent, competent, independent divers. Don't become a DM sausage factory.

 

[unterwasser]

Not looking for an argument, but although I think it's fairly likely that I will get one; I think that I should chip in my 2 cents on this.

To start with, I think it's only fair to say that I am the owner of the dive centre in question here and although this will inevitably mean that I have bias towards my school and my product, I want to put my logic behind the course down to explain my point of view. This much I think everyone can agree is fair.

Although experience gained over years of diving is certainly very helpful in developing the skills of a dive master, I believe that it is unfair to expect people to be diving for years before becoming a DM. At the end of the day, gaining hundreds of dives is an expensive affair, and many people simply cannot afford this. I know that I couldn't afford to make hundreds of dives before I became a DM. In order to afford the dives, I had to work in the diving industry and in order to work in the diving industry I needed to become a DM. I am sure that I am not the only one that is or has been in this position.

Everyone needs to start somewhere, and 74 dives; with each dive having its own performance requirements and simulated emergencies is not a bad start at all. Would I say that the candidate will come out as a seasoned DM who knows everything? No. However, I will say that the candidate that comes out of this system will have had the best possible start to becoming a great DM. The 74 dives, elevated performance requirements, fitness training and in depth coaching on theory will certainly create a very good foundation on which to build a future career in the diving industry.

Added to this, the variable conditions will help candidates fine tune their diving skills and competance in challenging situations. Throwing them into 2degree water with strong currents and 0 vis in my opinion is just plain stupid and unsafe. The aim is that, on completion of this course, the candidates will be highly competant divers, with the correct (and correctly trained) skills to become Dive Masters. The next step would be to gain work experience from someone sensible enough to not expect them to suddenly be able to handle the work of someone who has been working in the diving industry for years.

Would I employ one of these candidates? Yes, I would. If they have hit the preformance requirements and stuck with such an intensive course it shows me that they have the skill and willpower to become great dive proffesionals.

Would I throw them in at the deep end and expect them to immediatly work as well as the other highly experienced staff? No, of course not. But I would get them working alongside more experienced staff so that they can gradually gain experience.

I have seen posts above claiming this is just a "zero to hero" course. Unfortunatly, after researching the zero to hero courses out there, I found that none of them actually simulated emergencies and common diver problem. All they did was to send the candidates diving and having them work at the dive centre to get their dive numbers up and to provide "real world experience". Well as I am sure any decent dive operation will tell you, dive accidents in a well run centre are rare. My centre has been operational since 2001 and has never had an accident. The relevance of this is that if I were to have a DM candidate working for me, it would be highly unlikely that they would encounter an accident or emergency. This is why I have structured the course differently to constantly simulate emergencies and other problems. To say that this does not give a decent foundation on which to build professional skills is incorrect.

Everyone deserves the chance to be able to get into the diving industry and this is a realistic way of doing so without becoming a dive centre slave for half a year or more. It also alows people who cannot afford to make hundreds of dives a chance to make a great foundation for themselves to push on with their diving career.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 04:08 PM ----------

Thank you for that rivers. That was actually a thought out and well put reply to the thread.
What you have put there is exactly what we are aiming for. I rmbled on about it in my post that came just after yours. I would be interested in what you think about what I wrote.

 

[hroark2112]

If they're not ready to perform the duties you have certified them to perform, don't certify them.

Hope this helps

 

[Dive Time]

Hi Hroark2112 That's the point we won't they have a very strict set of challenges/test's to perform and if they cannot pass this then they will not be passed there is not guarantee of passing this is not just a come and do this course and your a DM we're expecting people to have quite the shock when they participate we want quality not quantity hence why there is a limit to how many can take the course in a year / also not everyone wants to be a dm and not everyone can afford it in the first place.

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 09:51 PM ----------

Again a biased opinion but well articulated Unterwasser

 

[rivers]

---------- Post added February 15th, 2015 at 04:08 PM ----------

Thank you for that rivers. That was actually a thought out and well put reply to the thread.
What you have put there is exactly what we are aiming for. I rmbled on about it in my post that came just after yours. I would be interested in what you think about what I wrote.

I will try and put as much effort into this reply then

Honestly, I like the idea of the boot camp itself and exposing divers to various controlled "emergency situations" and different types of diving, etc. My biggest issue with the whole thing is you are taking brand new, uncertified divers and certifying them as DMs in 4 weeks with only 74 dives. It is still a zero to hero type of course, even though you are going about it in a different manner than others. Now, I am well aware that this is within PADI standards, but someone with 74 dives (even over the course of a month) is still very much a new diver. New divers don't know what they don't know, no matter how good and thorough their initial training may be.
I remember where I was at 74 dives, and I was no where ready to be a DM. And for most divers, no matter how good their initial training, aren't ready to be either. Personally, I started my DM course after diving for 4.5 years and 375-ish dives (up to 5.5 years and 550-ish). I dive nearly every weekend, and have been for the past 4 years. Not nearly as many sea dives as I would like, but this is the UK so the quarry it is when I can't make it to the sea. The first 2 years I lived in the UK, I used to travel by train at least once a week (didn't have a UK licence) to my local inland site just to go diving with all my kit in tow. Sometimes, I would travel halfway across the country to a train station near a mate's so I could get some sea dives in. My point with this is, someone who wants to be a DM, and actually work in the industry, will make the effort to be a regular diver, work on their skills, and actually take the time to learn to dive, screw up a little and learn from their mistakes before becoming a leader and role model for the next generation of divers. At the end of the day, DMs and instructors are meant to be role models and leaders. But, a diver needs time to develop those skills and the mental attitude.
So while I applaud the idea of the bootcamp, I think it goes one step too far with what it's final product. Perhaps a better idea would have been OW-Rescue with maybe the full deep and nav specialities over the course of the month (still with the 74 dives, and challenges, scenarios, etc) and churning out excellent recreational divers who have done what basically amounts to a dive intensive if you will.
Anyway, that's my 2p