DiveMaster or IANTD Deep Diver?

[ReefTrekker]

I agree Mike, the "demo skills" aren't going to help a lot.

But I do think getting in a review of the fundamentals might help someone get more for thier money in the Adv. Nitrox class. (If you've decided to do both) The Divemaster class may do that, it may not. If I were set on taking both, I'd pursue the general knowledge first, then go on to the specific knowledge.....I've found I get more out of education that way.

I'm sure either class is fine, thier not prerequisite for one another.

Not trying to step on any toes here.......just trying to provide some input.

 

[diverbrian]

I had that choice last spring. I chose both. I finished my Deep Diver/Adv. Nitrox in June and my DiveCon in Oct.

Not all places teach their dive professionals to demonstrate their skills on their knees. The staff at the LDS that I work with insists that the DiveCons and Instructors are neutral in the pool. This is where we want the students at the end of their pool sessions and it is better accomplished by demonstrating it.

The courses complimented each other in my case although they are different. The decompression theory in my Adv. Nitrox was slightly more advanced than the DiveCon, but not by much. The supervision of newer divers and practicing of taking charge of a situation underwater played into the better buddy skills required in Adv. Nitrox. Through my apprenticeship, I was learning better observation of the divers around me so that I could detect a problem more easily. This is essential at depth when your number of options and amount of bottom time left to solve a problem decrease by quite a margin.

I also wanted the experience of having done some of the things that the other instructors had done to be more knowledgable in working with students. I even took a Caribbean trip that I hadn't planned on initially so that I would have a better idea about the warm water trips that the students may take and how "vacation diving" actually worked in the real world (ie. boat schedules and fighting off DM's that want to set up your gear for you). I took the Adv. Nitrox for a similar reason. The experience of having done the types of dives that the "local divers" were going to work up to was essential in my mind. I still have the military mindset that says that if you plan to be a leader, you had better start by having done what the rest of the group wants to do.

My advice: take the deep dive course and possibly the advanced Nitrox if available first. This will improve your diving skills. Become the best DIVER that you can before you try to become dive leader. You will be more respected at the dive leader level for it.

Oh, and no matter what you do, the first rule to me: HAVE FUN and DIVE OFTEN!

 

[Cave Diver]

The DM class isn't just about learning to superivise. You'll get a decent amount of knowledge development in physics, physiology, decompression theory, etc. You'll also get to work on your fundamental skills (for "demonstration quality", which is good practice) and your rescue skills.

IMO, You will get just as much physiology and decompression theory (maybe more) from a course like the Adv. Nitrox or Deep Diver as you would from any DM course.

I also dont see a DM course as a place to "work on your fundamental skills." As a DM, your skills should already be at "Demonstration Quality" so that you can show others how to properly perform the skills. Otherwise you are setting a poor example of the required standards. I'm rather surprised to see such a suggestion from an IDCS.

Also, you don't have to be a DM, or even plan on being a DM in order to take a rescue class.

And finally, as a DM who may be responsible for other people, I would think that it would be beneficial to have training beyond what you may encounter. I can just imagine a situation where a DM has to assist someone who managed to get below 100' when they shouldnt have and now neither one of them has the proper training or experience to manage the situation.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I agree Mike, the "demo skills" aren't going to help a lot.

But I do think getting in a review of the fundamentals might help someone get more for thier money in the Adv. Nitrox class. (If you've decided to do both) The Divemaster class may do that, it may not. If I were set on taking both, I'd pursue the general knowledge first, then go on to the specific knowledge.....I've found I get more out of education that way.

I'm sure either class is fine, thier not prerequisite for one another.

Not trying to step on any toes here.......just trying to provide some input.

You're not stepping on any one's toes. Every one has their own point of view and conversation is more fun that way.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I had that choice last spring. I chose both. I finished my Deep Diver/Adv. Nitrox in June and my DiveCon in Oct.

Not all places teach their dive professionals to demonstrate their skills on their knees. The staff at the LDS that I work with insists that the DiveCons and Instructors are neutral in the pool. This is where we want the students at the end of their pool sessions and it is better accomplished by demonstrating it.

The courses complimented each other in my case although they are different. The decompression theory in my Adv. Nitrox was slightly more advanced than the DiveCon, but not by much. The supervision of newer divers and practicing of taking charge of a situation underwater played into the better buddy skills required in Adv. Nitrox. Through my apprenticeship, I was learning better observation of the divers around me so that I could detect a problem more easily. This is essential at depth when your number of options and amount of bottom time left to solve a problem decrease by quite a margin.....

I agree that a diver can learn a lot in good DM training. But...I don't think a diver should become a DM unless they want to be a DM.

Now, if some one asked me how to become qualified to assist in training or guid and help other divers, I might certainly recommend DM training.

 

[ReefTrekker]

Cave Diver,

you're right, they do need to be up to par as a DM, but often aren't going into the DM class. In some cases, it's about evaluating a trainee's skills, and other cases in further developing them. That's why some DM candidates get through it in a week, while others get through it in months. I think I mis-stated what I was trying to get across.

And you have to have taken a rescue class to be a DM.....if your skills need work, they get attention in the DM course. I didn't mean that this is where one learns rescue skills.

By "fundamentals" I'm referring to the skills up through the rescue class. I consider OW, AOW and Rescue to cover a lot of "fundamentals" that get fine tuned in DM training. probably a poor choice of wording.

And I can see your point on further experience making one a better Divemaster.........

 

[kramynot2000]

I was facing the same decision last summer about whether to go through my DM course or start down the tech courses and decided to go with the DM course. The first factor was the time required. The DM course took months to complete and I had the time available for that so opted to take it. Also, I started at the beginning of summer so there would be quite a few classes that I could assist with to complete the course. During the winter, classes seem to slow down so you may not be able to get all the intern dives that you need, when you want them and you may end up just waiting until summer anyways.

With that said, I'm glad I went the DM course first. First, if you do associate with a shop I'm finding there are benefits to that. You get to know the instructors so you can get a feel about who you want to teach you the tech stuff, you can get a good discount on gear, etc. I've talked to my DM instructor about the tech classes and he's letting me attend his Deco class to see if I want to take it, without having to pay for it until I decide.

Plus there is the big bucks from being a DM! If I help with a class, I get free air for my tanks - about $8 value, and if I get a Tune-up class to teach, that's about $30-$40 per student I think (I'm the lowest on the seniority ladder so I haven't been offered a class yet.) I figure in about 30-40 years, I'll have my total investment back! Like they say, you don't do this for the money, but for the love of diving.

 

[WillAbbott]

Some great and interesting replies so far, I think.

I had a feeling this would be as divided among members as I am personnaly.

I do admit the yearly fees of DM is among my concerns with doing DM, I can tell you that right now, unless it takes me, oh, 2-3 months or more to finish DM, I won't be able to pay for insurance.

Some good points about the benifits as well, I recently e-mailed my instructor friend, and he said thier shop pays pretty decent for DM's to work at OW classes. He says he essentially dove for free for the 2 years he was a DM. Of course some of the benifits aren't going to do me a lot of good... for one, I won't be able to do the more advanced stuff through the shop I'd DM through (about the only shop withing an hours drive or 100 miles that I do bussiness with). Also the shop I deal with, only has a limited amount of gear in stock or that they can order of intrest to me... they could get me tanks, a drysuit, a lift bag, a mask, and maybe a few additional small items but thats about it... I'm about 200 miles from a Halcyon Dealer, about 100 from a Dive Rite/OMS dealer (of which I'd have to special order anything), and 200 miles from an IANTD instructor that I'd actually be willing to pay.

I've got an e-mail into my shop about some concerns with DM training, or after the fact, when I hear back, I'll reply about the financial side of it. I do know for a fact that the owner is a newly certified Course Director, and he said that DM's can now do Discover Scuba, after assiting with like 4 of them... he said he pays $10 per person to come to a Discover Scuba you organize, that's pretty good, if you did one a month and had 5 people come, that's pretty decen money... he gives the gear and air for it, for free, all you gotta do is haul gear, do the "class", clean gear, and return it.


I got to thinking a bit more last night, and stumbled across another idea, which I'm now leaning the most twoards... I should learn at least one new thing in the class, as well as get practice with skills, and improvement in skills... most of my skills haven't been practied for 6 months of more (go figure no matter how many times I ask, my instructor friend has yet to do an S-Drill or any other skill practice with me, different diving philosiphy's I guess) it should also give me an opportunity to perfect trim, and weighting issues.... though much of the class will be back to the basics, I hear nothing but good things from all levels and experience of divers...

What could this be? Why GUE's DIR Fundamentals of course Fifth-D has a couple comming up soon, and the cost is much lower than I remember it... this would also open the door to thier Recreational Tri-Ox, and Tech 1 courses

 

[MikeFerrara]

I think the DIRF and rec triox is a fine choice. Just to throw another option into the mix, I will point out that you can combine the new IANTD rec trimix with the Advanced Nitrox also.

 

[WillAbbott]

I think the DIRF and rec triox is a fine choice. Just to throw another option into the mix, I will point out that you can combine the new IANTD rec trimix with the Advanced Nitrox also.

Don't you still have to have the Deep Diver to do the Adv Nitrox though?