Dive Travel Poll

[Indah]

Yes of course. I'm not here to argue or be insensitive. I'm only highliting the risk of deaths and the causes of deaths. Restrictions are in place to stop deaths and not to overwhelm health care systems. But with that being the reason, then why don't they eliminate every risk to people's lives?...it just won't be sustainable for the world to continue like that
Being from Australia, I know right now it's taboo to question the restrictions. But I choose to be optimistic about this damned situation. I hope travel and people's lives can return to normal, because I know more people are suffering and will die from this restrictive way of life than from the actual virus

Can you explain how you know that more people will die from this restrictive way of life? Study? Data? Maybe compare Sweden with their neighbors and then consider that again.

 

[Indah]

Seems very strange time to allow resumption of some travel if the general public isn't to travel during Idul Fitri.

It is not strange but it is Indonesia. Really essential travel is allowed. Some will slip through, but the enormous movement of people has been prevented. Actually, I think that Indonesia is doing what they can. And we do not have people demostrating with assault rifles.

 

[DownUnderwater Dan]

Sorry, forget to mention why I picked Belgium. Population 11 million. 6% has been (or still is) infected. 8.500 deaths. When compare mortality rates for March and april 2020 with other periods it shows that these are probably really Covid victims. The chances of dying are very high. Either the real number of infected persons is much higher. This would give a fatality rate maybe of 0.1%. Of a huge number of people this are still many deaths. Or the fatality rate as what is estimated now about 1%. But in Indonesia 67% of the men smoke, there is still much TBC and Diabetes number s growing. With the limited medical everywhere in Indonesia the mortality rate could be much higher. We just do not have the data to know anything yet.

I agree, we do not have enough data. And ready available data at present varies considerably between different countries, because of different underlying factors

 

[DownUnderwater Dan]

Can you explain how you know that more people will die from this restrictive way of life? Study? Data? Maybe compare Sweden with their neighbors and then consider that again.

I apologise, I don't want to steer this thread away from any optimism

Far more people in Australia are predicted to die by suicide than from coronavirus due to lockdown | Daily Mail Online

In Australia, there was a story this week from the national broadcaster. Health experts say that they can't accurately predict effects of covid-19, but one thing they can always accurately forecast, is suicides in Australia.

This is just one example in Australia, where the effects of the restrictions will lead to more deaths than the virus itself.

I don't want to look at other studies showing the amount of people dying from undiagnosed illnesses because of restrictions, because I posted 1 enough.

I understand people don't see mental health and suicides as important at all in the climate of covid-19 hysteria. But I understand, especially in Indonesia, where there is no cash stimulus or monetary support...it will cause stress that people in Western countries will never experience.

Aku tidak bisa tunggu kembali menyelam sama kawan-kawan ku di Indonesia, secepatnya dong!

 

[DownUnderwater Dan]

We just do not have the data to know anything yet.

In regards to data already available, in Italy, one of the hardest hit countries, 88% of deaths recorded as corona deaths are because they died in a hospital where corona virus was. Meaning only 12% were directly corona related. I have suspected this recording of deaths from the very beginning of this hysteria, and I'm very positive other countries are recording in a similar manner. Misinformation creates hysteria in present reality

I have posted part of story on Italy's corona crisis.:

According to Prof Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health, the country’s mortality rate is far higher due to demographics - the nation has the second oldest population worldwide - and the manner in which hospitals record deaths. But Prof Ricciardi added that Italy’s death rate may also appear high because of how doctors record fatalities.

“The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.

On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

 

[Indah]

In regards to data already available, in Italy, one of the hardest hit countries, 88% of deaths recorded as corona deaths are because they died in a hospital where corona virus was. Meaning only 12% were directly corona related. I have suspected this recording of deaths from the very beginning of this hysteria, and I'm very positive other countries are recording in a similar manner. Misinformation creates hysteria in present reality

I have posted part of story on Italy's corona crisis.:

According to Prof Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health, the country’s mortality rate is far higher due to demographics - the nation has the second oldest population worldwide - and the manner in which hospitals record deaths. But Prof Ricciardi added that Italy’s death rate may also appear high because of how doctors record fatalities.

“The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.

On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

Please look at the number of extra mortality in countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium. One week in th Netherlands: 5.000 deaths instead of the nomal 3.000.

 

[DownUnderwater Dan]

Please look at the number of extra mortality in countries such as the Netherlands and Belgium. One week in th Netherlands: 5.000 deaths instead of the nomal 3.000.

The Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Italy or any other 1st world developed European countries with brilliant scientists and doctors...will all have varying ways they record covid-19 & flu related deaths and cases. And the numbers vary greatly because of so many factors unrelated to the level of danger of the corona virus cold

 

[Ripley]

Looking at the numbers of a small country as Belgium is shocking.

Population 11 million. 6% has been (or still is) infected. 8.500 deaths.

We will never know the exact number of corona deaths except if they start testing deceased people.
Why not? Because deaths caused by hypertension, diabetes, cardiovascular pathologies and other causes have been lumped into the COVID-19 category.
The government calls it "transparency".


As for my answer to the poll: not this year. Perhaps in a year or so.
I believe one should use common sense now and remind themselves the virus hasn't left yet.
What made the virus spread out this fast and so broad? Traveling.
If people go travel again straight away, it'll be hitting the repeat button all over.
So for now I stay in Belgium... and I'm not even traveling to the other side of the country for a dive. Instead I stay close at home.

 

[Indah]

The Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Italy or any other 1st world developed European countries with brilliant scientists and doctors...will all have varying ways they record covid-19 & flu related deaths and cases. And the numbers vary greatly because of so many factors unrelated to the level of danger of the corona virus cold

But excess mortality is a hard and clear number: Excess mortality caused by the novel coronavirus (COVID-19) | RIVM

 

[Indah]

We will never know the exact number of corona deaths except if they start testing deceased people.
Why not? Because deaths caused by hypertension, diabetes, cardiovascular pathologies and other causes have been lumped into the COVID-19 category.
The government calls it "transparency".


As for my answer to the poll: not this year. Perhaps in a year or so.
I believe one should use common sense now and remind themselves the virus hasn't left yet.
What made the virus spread out this fast and so broad? Traveling.
If people go travel again straight away, it'll be hitting the repeat button all over.
So for now I stay in Belgium... and I'm not even traveling to the other side of the country for a dive. Instead I stay close at home.

The excess mortality numbers from Belgium must be easy to find. And those are clear. But indeed much more we will now by May 2021.