Dive travel and responsibility

[Lorenzoid]

I take an annual trip as part of a loosely organized group of anywhere from 6 to 12 people. I THINK it's understood by all of us that no one of us is the "organizer," though one of us might gather the commitments and put a dive op's requested deposit on their credit card, while another one of us might take care of the lodging arrangements, a rental car, or whatever. I would not hold any one of us responsible for anything that goes wrong or turned out not to be what I expected. I think that's the risk we assume for choosing to do it ourselves and NOT through a professional trip organizer.

By the way, "SettleUp" is a useful app for recording the expenses of each person in a group and splitting costs according to which people in the group received the benefit from which expenditures.

 

[Hintermann]

I am not quite sure what kind of answers you are expecting Mod, but during my dive travels around the world I have seen quite a few irregularities and it is not always clear who to blame.

• In the Red Sea diving areas for example, they make a big play about marine parks and protection of reefs. But during my 3 liveaboard trips there, I saw that it was the Egyptian crews who regularly ignored the guidelines more than any tourist diver. The main infringement was dumping rubbish where they were strictly not supposed to do so. In many dive sites, particularly the northern ones close to Sharm al Sheik, we can see the evidence of that litter on the reefs.
• In Phuket and surrounds, Western dive operators are somewhat cagey when questioned about the cause of reef damage in some areas. Coral bleaching is doubtlessly the cause in a few places, but there are several other places where human interference seemed to be the case, mainly illegal fishing practices. A dive guide on a day boat during my last trip there was rather ambiguous when asked about it on the crowded boat but gave a clearer answer when I met him for a drink later that evening. There are (or were) certain members in these forums themselves who are vehement (rather too vehement IMO) in their declarations of how clean cut the diving scene is in Thailand.
• On my first trip to Cozumel, I rather unwisely stayed at a large southern "All Inclusive" resort and used the adjoining Dive Centre. A few of us noticed the corrupt shenanigans that went on between the dive guides and some of the tourists, mainly large "tips" to modify pre-arranged itineraries etc. On one such occasion, 4 of us experienced divers were told that the scheduled trip to Punta Sur was going to be cancelled because of prevailing conditions and we were put on a boat crowded with an inexperienced diver group travelling together from somewhere in the US. Later we learned from at least 3 other boats who'd been there that conditions at Punta Sur had been excellent all day and no other dive op cancelled the visit as far as we know.

 

[redacted]

I am not quite sure what kind of answers you are expecting Mod, but during my dive travels around the world I have seen quite a few irregularities and it is not always clear who to blame.

• On my first trip to Cozumel, I rather unwisely stayed at a large southern "All Inclusive" resort and used the adjoining Dive Centre. A few of us noticed the corrupt shenanigans that went on between the dive guides and some of the tourists, mainly large "tips" to modify pre-arranged itineraries etc. On one such occasion, 4 of us experienced divers were told that the scheduled trip to Punta Sur was going to be cancelled because of prevailing conditions and we were put on a boat crowded with an inexperienced diver group travelling together from somewhere in the US. Later we learned from at least 3 other boats who'd been there that conditions at Punta Sur had been excellent all day and no other dive op cancelled the visit as far as we know.

It seems to me the open may have had some space problems or may have been conserned with the abilities of one or more members of your group.

 

[drrich2]

I started the thread because somebody was complaining about a trip organizer, because the boat operators at the remote site were running the boats too fast.

I don't understand the problem. Too fast why? Was it creating a rocky ride on rough seas or something? How 'over the top' was the problem?

Seems to me many people who join on organized trip are looking for someone else to be the leader and manage/fix things & make decisions. So, they expect a leader. Organizer & leader aren't always the same thing.

What Lorenzoid describes sounds more like a peer group outing. Many people who sign up for organized trips are different; many people going are more dependent on knowledgeable leadership.

Some trips amount to some buddies getting together. Some trips are marketed more like a commercial product.

It could go a long way to have the organizer(s) post a strong disclaimer up front detailing the organizer's role. Be mindful this could be turn off potential customers. If you have so many people wanting to go it's no problem, great; you've ditched the needier ones! If you have some trouble filling your trip, well...

This is somewhat situationally dependent. If I were booking another Bonaire trip, I'd do it myself. If I were heading to the Philippines, I'd be looking for a travel agent or group to arrange most everything. And my comfort level for addressing problems in a more alien (to me) environment would be different.

Richard.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I started the thread because somebody was complaining about a trip organizer, because the boat operators at the remote site were running the boats too fast. I looked up the organizer, and he runs a nonprofit virtual dive club, which organizes shore and boat dives locally, and obviously sets up some dive travel. I was quite surprised, when I saw that, at the complaints that the poster had, because to me, if I show up for a Meetup dive, I don't expect ANYBODY is responsible for me, other than me. With travel, it could get a little muddier, which is why I started the thread. But it seems like most people feel, as I do, that the problem is the dive op's, and not the trip organizer's.

The way I see it is at least one person in the group needs to be the official organizer (charter master) and that should be worked out ahead of time. Maybe they get a better break on their price..or whatever..to make it worth it to them. Then the charter master would to deal with the operator based on the groups complaints...and that would be after a brief meeting in private to structure the complaint. Every dive boat I've ever been on that was set up by a club or dive shop had an appointed charter master.
In a situation such a diesel smoke being sucked into the compressor I think anybody in the group (if they are experienced enough to know to make that call) should immediately step in and say something since time would be of the essence.

 

[danvolker]

As Eric says, sure someone needs to be in charge of the "deal" for the trip...but each diver on the trip is responsible for recognizing behaviors or actions that threaten the safety of individuals in their group...whether bad air, dangerous boating practices, whatever, you dont assign the responsibilitIes.

 

[Hintermann]

It seems to me the open may have had some space problems or may have been conserned with the abilities of one or more members of your group.

Not at all. Apart from the fact that all of us were very experienced, we clearly asked if one or more of us were considered unsuitable and fatso 'William' said no. If they had said one of us was unsuitable and 3 was too small a group to justify the trip, we would have accepted that. But they did not and we know for facts the shenanigans that William and one or two others were up to.

 

[LiquidDivingAdventure]

Before I send clients or friends on dive trips, I think it is my responsibility, and that of other agents and organizers, to know the resort and or liveaboard they are booking. That said I will admit I have not personally been to every resort I book nor on every liveaboard I book. But there are some resorts and charters that I do not book and do not offer to divers because of poor reviews. I suggest that there is at least a moral responsibility (if not legal) if you are taking a person's money to offer them the straight story and honest information. An example that comes to mind would be the Bay Islands. We know Utila has no-see-ums and Roatan has sand flies that bite like crazy. But they only seem to affect about half the folks who travel there. If I send divers to the Bay Islands, I make sure they clearly understand the biting bugs. If they still say OK, good to go, I make sure they have Benadryl, lotions, bug sprays, vit B shots what ever works. They will not come back home and say, "you didn't tell me about the bugs." About my business liability for the actions of a dive op half way around the world….tough call. To me, as with so many dive situations, I believe we, the individual divers, have responsibility for our own actions. If you go to a dive op and don't like what you see, don't dive.

 

[Edward3c]

Before I send clients or friends on dive trips, I think it is my responsibility, and that of other agents and organizers, to know the resort and or liveaboard they are booking. That said I will admit I have not personally been to every resort I book nor on every liveaboard I book. But there are some resorts and charters that I do not book and do not offer to divers because of poor reviews. I suggest that there is at least a moral responsibility (if not legal) if you are taking a person's money to offer them the straight story and honest information. An example that comes to mind would be the Bay Islands. We know Utila has no-see-ums and Roatan has sand flies that bite like crazy. But they only seem to affect about half the folks who travel there. If I send divers to the Bay Islands, I make sure they clearly understand the biting bugs. If they still say OK, good to go, I make sure they have Benadryl, lotions, bug sprays, vit B shots what ever works. They will not come back home and say, "you didn't tell me about the bugs." About my business liability for the actions of a dive op half way around the world….tough call. To me, as with so many dive situations, I believe we, the individual divers, have responsibility for our own actions. If you go to a dive op and don't like what you see, don't dive.

This is an area where the UK is different.

Major travel companies like Thomson and Thomas Cook have been found liable because of the condition of the facilities on offer to customers at their destination, and I don't mean the ones they own or manage.

If I, as an individual book a diving trip to the Red Sea and the operator was not up to scratch, those who used me to do the booking could make a claim just as they could against the big operators.

 

[dmoore19]

The group trips I have been on require that I sign a contract with the shop I booked the trip with. There is a lot of legal mumbo jumbo on the contract but in short they make sure you understand that they booked the trip and aren't responsibile for the actions of the operator. The resorts where they book are fully vetted prior to any of their customers going there. While it does limit their places to go it makes for an enjoyable trip for their customers, if you like a group trip that is.