Dive Training and Prerequites

[seahunter]

When I started diving and training there was a Scuba Diver course. That's it!
It was obvious that many divers wanted or needed more training because some were getting into trouble - some things never change.

Wayne Crowley, myself and a few other instructors started a program called the Diver Experience Program (DEP for short) which was formally adopted by ACUC and is now called their Level II (basically Advanced).
The other big agencies NAUI and PADI already had started devlopment of similar programs and the current continuing education series of courses is the end result.

Let me explain the philosophy that encourages new divers (recently certified) to take the next level ASAP. All agencies agree that new divers SHOULD take the next level (Advanced, Level II, etc) right away!!
The reason is simple. A newly certified diver has the theory and the pool skills pretty much mastered. He has also demonstrated his mastery of basic diving skills in 4 actual dives under supervision.
Now he wants to go diving. In many dive facilities there are very few opportunities for new divers to go diving with experienced divers who will have the time, patience and attitude to work closely with those new divers. The new diver will look for diving opportunities wherever he can find them. It's just a matter of time before he is with a group who want to do a dive for which he is not well-prepared. It could be a night dive, a deep dive, a current dive, etc but his basic training did not give him any actual experience to prepare him for those dives.
I've said it a dozen times on this board - "Peer pressure, not water pressure is what kills divers!". Not wanting to look wimpy or disappoint his new diver friends, the new diver will go along for the dive even though it is beyond his limitations and experience. The certified divers are not trained leaders so they don't likely realize what's going on in the diver's head nor are they prepared for a problem.

I know this is what happens because we often get divers coming in for an Advanced course who have a logged a dozen or more dives including several to 100' and maybe a couple of night dives. There's no reason for them to take the Advanced course - they've already done the dives. Only if they want to go on in the system or if they want to learn how to make those types of dives correctly do they need the Advanced course.

Perhaps you see the point already!! New divers are enthusiastic but not experienced. Doesn't it make sense for them to learn more about diving and make some more dives with professional suervision? Of course! Having learned how to plan and make a night dive or a deep dive and how to use a compass better, they can now join other certified divers and will have the knowledge, skills and more experience so they can make those types of dives safely. They will also now have the confidence they need to make a safe deep dive or night dive - confidence based on training and experience.

Don't be misled by the name of the course - Advanced Diver. It's not for advanced divers. It's for novice divers who want to learn some more advanced skills with professional guidance. And, as I've said above, the time for that is right away - not after a dozen dives in which he had some problems or worse without an instructor present.
Perhaps the name could be changed so those who don't understand the training principles or standards used misinterpret the title - make a suggestion!

Every agency makes the instructor responsible for ensuring the Open Water Divers enrolling in an Advanced course are ready. Some may need a review of the academics or the pool skills. Some will not. The instructor must be sure before they start the course.

I sure don't want to pick on you doppler but this is not fast-tracking at all. In fact, it's responsible training. Taking a basic diver out with a group of experienced divers who are not leader level and suggesting he'll be OK on a dive beyond his training and limitations is irresponsible.

You seem to think that a basic card prepares a diver for scuba diving anywhere, anytime, any how! NOPE!! And he knows that from his training. He has met the requirements for a basic card in scuba diving. It's simply not possible nor logical to assume because he has a card he can make any scuba dive - hence the need for an Advanced course ASAP!

Since I've taken exception to your comments let me continue:
1. Scuba Diving is a very affordable sport compared to almost any other equipment-intensive, adventure sport!
2. You mention that divers don't seem to have a problem when they are with an instructor. Bingo! Take the Advanced course ASAP!
3. Divers today are better trained than in the 'good ol' days' and the stats prove it!
4. You are hanging around the wrong dive stores if you feel they are taking shortcuts in quality to make a buck!

 

[Doppler]

Marvintpa once bubbled...
Which would you prefer to dive with: your average recently certified OW graduate, or someone who has not dived in 10 years?

Do I get a third choice?

What's your point. Dive where and under what circumstances... am I teaching them or not? Because if this is a fun dive, I pick someone who's a peer... and I know that sounds exclusionary but I get all mother-hen around newly certified divers and one's who've been riding the bench for a decade.

 

[snuggle]

you are right marie ..you have to choose carefully..but not everyone whos just passed their open water knows many divers with experience who they can dive with..everyone has a right as to who they dive with but how are new divers to gain experience if everyone who has been diving for awhile decided to not dive someone who just got their open water..what it would cause is more diving deaths,because you would have new divers diving with new divers all the time..just think how you would feel if other members of board especially the ontario section decided not to dive with you because your a newbie (which i know would not happen)but just think if it did happen..i remember how excited you were to finally get a date for your open water test..you passed and are now having fun diving with someone who is very experienced and thats great...you were lucky to have divers with experience there to dive with after your open water..i juts found it akward that you would post that you prefer not to dive with a newbie after all the experienced divers that stood behind you 100% and were willing to dive with you..and still do..

 

[seahunter]

It's too bad snuggle but very common that experienced divers avoid diving with new divers. There are however some very good reasons for that attitude which Marv might share if he's so inclined.
That's even more reason for the new divers to be encouraged to take another course with more knowledge and skills right away and to go on sport dives with their LDS which are most often arranged for novice divers and usually have a leader level present.

 

[cobaltbabe]

But being new myself, and lucky enough to have dive mentors and friends who have taken me under their wings, I would choose and do choose not to dive with new divers. I also think that the amount of interest has alot to do with the amount of help you will recieve. Yes your right I am very very lucky. I am also surrounding myself with people who dive in the field that I want to dive in, Tech. If you want to put me down for wanting to advance myself that is fine, but I want to be able to do the best I can at a dangerous sport, and to do that I have to surround myself and emmerse myself in the theory and the logic behind it. Diving with a new diver or someone who hasn't seen the water in 10 years doesn't cut it.

 

[seahunter]

This is the first post I've seen of yours MikeF although several readers have indicated that they like you and your store.
I'm disappointed that you are so negative about the sport. Certainly some shops may have questionable motivation but lots of the good ones work very hard to produce good divers, give them safe diving opportunities and also make a good living.

Selling equipment ought to be the last thing on a dive store owner's mind.
Non-divers don't buy dive gear!
Divers not enjoying themselves don't buy dive gear!
Dead divers don't buy dive gear!

Clearly the correct motivation ought to be to produce divers who have fun and safely. Then the gear sales will follow!!

So far as starting the scuba system over, the current sport diving system is the best we've had - not necessarily perfect but the best!
I've seen more new training agencies start up in the last few years than ever before (and I've seen a lot come and go) so you're suggestion is shared. Unfortunately, I've yet to see the reason for most of them.

 

[Doppler]

seahunter once bubbled...
When I started diving and training there was a Scuba Diver course. That's it!

I sure don't want to pick on you doppler but this is not fast-tracking at all. [SNIPPED] You seem to think that a basic card prepares a divers for scuba diving anywhere, anytime, any how!

No SH, I do not think that a basic OW card prepares a diver for anything other than dives suitable for their training level. Which translates into taking a very gentle progression and gaining experience while controlling risk.

You and I both learned by being thrown into a pool with the gear in a pile in the deep end... that's not what I am necessarily advocating... although that was fun wasn't it. But I do belive that advanced diver has connotations that we all know are well outside the definition you cited -- which was a pretty good outline IMHO!

Perhaps a name change would help... but the core is still that many, many shops are faced with a market that tempts them to deliver numbers rather than results.

And you know... the name of the course is important... each level of course has certain deliverables. Advanced openwater to me means someone with a pretty good advanced skills and experience.


I will put this into a context that's a little outside the present one but that I know you can relate too...

Recently, I had six candidates -- all buddies -- for advanced trimix. The expectations on this course are that graduates have reached a level where they are the instructor's peers (as far as diving skills I guess). ANYhow, I had them on a skills dive... the same one I use for people who want to improve basic techniques (this is a program for single tank divers as well as those with techdiver stars in their eyes). Anyway, I had never dove with this group before and needed to see them in the water -- shallow water -- before jumping on a dive boat with them. Three of these guys failed!!! I have no idea how they got the certs they had, but they washed from the class, and had no business doing simple decompression dives in my opinion. Every course comes with a standard, and if you don't think someone meets it, don't certify them... maybe I am -- as has been suggested -- too harsh, but so is the ocean and so are the lakes.

By the way, the three that stayed in the trimix program, thanked me for opening their eyes to their deficiencies.

 

[Tom R]

Limiting yourself to only "tech" types can also have a negitive impact as most people have bad habits, broaden your horizons a little and enjoy diving. Don't be in a rush.

Tom

 

[snuggle]

theory and logic?what does that have to do with an experienced diver wanting or not wanting to dive with a newbie..are you saying marie that you wouldnt extend to a new diver what other divers have extended to you?sounds hypocrytical dont you think..i think that any diver that had someone show them the ropes would be eager to pass that knowledge around...thank goodness that the divers who have dived with you didnt take the same position that you are taking,or you wouldnt have anyone to dive with at all..i do hope that later on down the line if a newbie ask you to help them out and show them the ropes that youll remember those that helped you..

 

[Butch103]

cobaltbabe once bubbled...


I would prefer to dive with neither. That's why you have to choose your dive partners carefully.

I can understand the 10 yr lapsed diver...but why not a newbie?? Are you just saying in your particular case, because you are a new diver you would rather dive with an active experienced diver?