Dive shops vs BSAC-style club diving

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No, I have not. But I recall you asking some questions about chartering a boat on behalf of a dive club or something to that effect, so I get the impression you have looked into insurance. And I take it the answer is that it's ridiculously expensive?

I suppose it would be expensive for a single club to buy insurance, yes. However, I'm thinking of a BSAC-like system, where this entity--let's call it ASAC--has thousands of members, all paying membership dues. The ratio of total members to instructor-qualified members would be similar to whatever it is in our current regime, where we have X number of active divers in a region and Y number of instructors. As I understand it, an instructor, such as one affiliated with PADI, is required to buy insurance. Why could that insurance not be covered by membership dues rather than only by individual student fees? To make membership attractive, members would have to receive benefits other than instruction of course, but isn't that how BSAC works? I would think the feasibility of a club-based system depends more on having a critical mass of club members than insurance costs. Insurance generally makes little sense to anyone but actuaries, so take this as a rhetorical question if you wish. Just thinking aloud.

WARNING: Going way OT WRT to the OP now, but I think it's germane to where the conversation is now.

Yes, it is ridiculously expensive. I have been trying to find insurance for my - I don't know if club is the right word. I suppose it is. We're a 501(c)3 (sp?) non-profit, but we do have members that pay dues.

Anyway, that club is somewhat specialized and doesn't have wide appeal among divers in general. My club is focused on technical diving of WWII wrecks. So, I was thinking of trying to start a local club similar to how BSAC works at the local level, but without national ties. Something that would have more broad appeal to the local diving community. Ideally, a club that could grow big enough to have its own compressor and tanks, BCDs, and regs that club members could borrow or rent for cheap. As well as offering club members instruction, also for relatively cheap.

I think the biggest impediment to local clubs is insurance. It's a chicken and egg problem. If there were enough local clubs that all wanted insurance, it might be worth it to an insurance company to offer policies that are affordable. But, there are so few that the insurance company has to charge a ridiculous amount to be sure they can still show a profit even if they have claims. So, there are not enough local clubs to jumpstart the insurance industry. And there's no affordable insurance to jumpstart building local clubs.

And the biggest impediment to a national level organization (a la BSAC) is the combination of local shops and the dive equipment manufacturers. Basically, shop bread-and-butter is a composite: Selling training, selling dive trips, and selling gear to people who are doing training or going on trips. There's a synergy there that doesn't work without all the components.

A large network of local clubs would take away from shops selling trips. Example: One shop local to me was selling a weekend trip last year to NC. They were charging $450. I checked into the details and I could have booked myself on the same boat, for the same days, and stayed in the same dive lodge - for $300. If I started a local club, the club would be organizing trips like that and offering them to members for a LOT less than what the local shop would charge. And, club members would often (I expect) be able to borrow gear they need from other club members. I offer stuff on loan to people I know all the time. If people from my club were going somewhere and needed a light for a night dive, I would be happy to loan them mine. I also imagine that a club would end up with members that are instructors and that those instructors might be inclined to offer training to members for a lot less than what a shop offers. I know my current club does. I got my SDI Deep and SDI Wreck full specialty certs by taking a class through my club. It cost me $200 (for both certs, combined). The same class through my local shop is $350.

Strong local clubs would undercut shops on trips, undermine gear sales (where I didn't even mention people sharing information and steering people away from some of those ridiculous purchases like certain recreational BCDs, etc.), and take away training sales. So, local shops, as a rule of thumb, do not want local clubs - except ones that are specifically affiliated with that shop. Clubs with a shop affiliation are clearly a sales tool.

Scuba equipment manufacturers have an interesting business model. I was talking to the owner of a local shop yesterday, whom I consider to be a friend. I was remarking on how, as an example from a different industry, in motorcycle equipment sales, any shop will likely have 1 or 2 suppliers that are a one-stop-shop for everything except the motorcycles themselves. Tucker Rocky is a big one. A m/c shop gets setup with a Tucker Rocky account and then they can stock pretty much everything they want to sell just by ordering from TR. And they don't get shafted with having to buy huge minimum orders of specific brands just to carry that brand.

The scuba industry is clearly different. AFAIK, there is no one stop shop that a scuba shop can order from to get a few ScubaPro regs and wetsuits, a few Aqualung regs and wetsuits, a few Atomic.... etc.. Every shop has to get setup with each individual manufacturer. With a few exceptions for stuff that qualifies more as accessories than necessities (e.g. Innovative Scuba, Trident, etc.).

The manufacturers have a very direct reliance on the local scuba retailers to move their products. The manufacturers don't want groups of people forming clubs and having an inventory of suits or regs or BCDs that club members can "check out" and use. They don't want people loaning each other equipment. They want people to have to buy their own. That's good for them. And they want people to buy it from their local shop, so the shop stays in business and the manufacturer continues to have all these individual reps out there (the shops) pushing their brand of gear. The manufacturers seem to require each shop to buy so much gear, as a minimum order, that it seems like many shops end up really only carrying 1 or 2 or 3 brands. They can't afford the minimums to stock SP, AL, Apeks, Hollis, Oceanic, Dive Rite, Hog, Poseidon, Waterproof, Fourth Element, Tusa, Ratio, Liquivision, Shearwater, etc..

So, the local shops and the manufacturers all have direct financial incentives for this country to NOT have a large network of clubs, which each have no affiliation to a particular shop.

And that's why I think we don't have ASAC.
 
WARNING: Going way OT WRT to the OP now, but I think it's germane to where the conversation is now.

Yes, it is ridiculously expensive. I have been trying to find insurance for my - I don't know if club is the right word. I suppose it is. We're a 501(c)3 (sp?) non-profit, but we do have members that pay dues.

Anyway, that club is somewhat specialized and doesn't have wide appeal among divers in general. My club is focused on technical diving of WWII wrecks. So, I was thinking of trying to start a local club similar to how BSAC works at the local level, but without national ties. Something that would have more broad appeal to the local diving community. Ideally, a club that could grow big enough to have its own compressor and tanks, BCDs, and regs that club members could borrow or rent for cheap. As well as offering club members instruction, also for relatively cheap.

I think the biggest impediment to local clubs is insurance. It's a chicken and egg problem. If there were enough local clubs that all wanted insurance, it might be worth it to an insurance company to offer policies that are affordable. But, there are so few that the insurance company has to charge a ridiculous amount to be sure they can still show a profit even if they have claims. So, there are not enough local clubs to jumpstart the insurance industry. And there's no affordable insurance to jumpstart building local clubs.

And the biggest impediment to a national level organization (a la BSAC) is the combination of local shops and the dive equipment manufacturers. Basically, shop bread-and-butter is a composite: Selling training, selling dive trips, and selling gear to people who are doing training or going on trips. There's a synergy there that doesn't work without all the components.

A large network of local clubs would take away from shops selling trips. Example: One shop local to me was selling a weekend trip last year to NC. They were charging $450. I checked into the details and I could have booked myself on the same boat, for the same days, and stayed in the same dive lodge - for $300. If I started a local club, the club would be organizing trips like that and offering them to members for a LOT less than what the local shop would charge. And, club members would often (I expect) be able to borrow gear they need from other club members. I offer stuff on loan to people I know all the time. If people from my club were going somewhere and needed a light for a night dive, I would be happy to loan them mine. I also imagine that a club would end up with members that are instructors and that those instructors might be inclined to offer training to members for a lot less than what a shop offers. I know my current club does. I got my SDI Deep and SDI Wreck full specialty certs by taking a class through my club. It cost me $200 (for both certs, combined). The same class through my local shop is $350.

Strong local clubs would undercut shops on trips, undermine gear sales (where I didn't even mention people sharing information and steering people away from some of those ridiculous purchases like certain recreational BCDs, etc.), and take away training sales. So, local shops, as a rule of thumb, do not want local clubs - except ones that are specifically affiliated with that shop. Clubs with a shop affiliation are clearly a sales tool.

Scuba equipment manufacturers have an interesting business model. I was talking to the owner of a local shop yesterday, whom I consider to be a friend. I was remarking on how, as an example from a different industry, in motorcycle equipment sales, any shop will likely have 1 or 2 suppliers that are a one-stop-shop for everything except the motorcycles themselves. Tucker Rocky is a big one. A m/c shop gets setup with a Tucker Rocky account and then they can stock pretty much everything they want to sell just by ordering from TR. And they don't get shafted with having to buy huge minimum orders of specific brands just to carry that brand.

The scuba industry is clearly different. AFAIK, there is no one stop shop that a scuba shop can order from to get a few ScubaPro regs and wetsuits, a few Aqualung regs and wetsuits, a few Atomic.... etc.. Every shop has to get setup with each individual manufacturer. With a few exceptions for stuff that qualifies more as accessories than necessities (e.g. Innovative Scuba, Trident, etc.).

The manufacturers have a very direct reliance on the local scuba retailers to move their products. The manufacturers don't want groups of people forming clubs and having an inventory of suits or regs or BCDs that club members can "check out" and use. They don't want people loaning each other equipment. They want people to have to buy their own. That's good for them. And they want people to buy it from their local shop, so the shop stays in business and the manufacturer continues to have all these individual reps out there (the shops) pushing their brand of gear. The manufacturers seem to require each shop to buy so much gear, as a minimum order, that it seems like many shops end up really only carrying 1 or 2 or 3 brands. They can't afford the minimums to stock SP, AL, Apeks, Hollis, Oceanic, Dive Rite, Hog, Poseidon, Waterproof, Fourth Element, Tusa, Ratio, Liquivision, Shearwater, etc..

So, the local shops and the manufacturers all have direct financial incentives for this country to NOT have a large network of clubs, which each have no affiliation to a particular shop.

And that's why I think we don't have ASAC.

Maybe the shops do think like that but I think that they are wrong. Having different ways to train, places to borrow kit and people to organise diving increases the pool of divers and increases diving. That is good for the shops. More customers doing more diving.

We spent £8k on kit with our local shop this year. We spend hundred more on servicing, gas and the general odds and sods. We book boats at £600 a time. Our members are customers of the high end technical instructors.

The competition for dive shops is from other pastimes, not different ways of doing their pastime.
 
Off-topic, sure, but really interesting, Stuart.

Why is the following not an impediment to BSAC? Do UK shops and equipment manufacturers operate differently than their US counterparts?

And the biggest impediment to a national level organization (a la BSAC) is the combination of local shops and the dive equipment manufacturers. Basically, shop bread-and-butter is a composite: Selling training, selling dive trips, and selling gear to people who are doing training or going on trips. There's a synergy there that doesn't work without all the components.
 
Maybe the shops do think like that but I think that they are wrong. Having different ways to train, places to borrow kit and people to organise diving increases the pool of divers and increases diving. That is good for the shops. More customers doing more diving.

We spent £8k on kit with our local shop this year. We spend hundred more on servicing, gas and the general odds and sods. We book boats at £600 a time. Our members are customers of the high end technical instructors.

The competition for dive shops is from other pastimes, not different ways of doing their pastime.
Dive shop/clubs frequently come down to SE FL and charter most or all of a boat. It is very beneficial for the operators
 
Off-topic, sure, but really interesting, Stuart.

Why is the following not an impediment to BSAC? Do UK shops and equipment manufacturers operate differently than their US counterparts?

You know how you boil a frog right? You start him in cold water and gradually heat the water so he doesn't notice and jump out. In the US, our version of capitalism has created dynamics in our society that limit our options and our opportunities. We are in a place now where our ability to experience things like scuba diving is totally shaped by profit centers and profit mechanisms. Marketing defines and shapes the language of our training. Research is conducted by the engines of profit. This has created some uncomfortable and unwanted consequences but it happened slowly over a period of time. So like the frog we now find ourselves in water of a temperature that we would have never chosen for ourselves.

It is possible to accept risk and build our own experience to club diving. I suspect foregoing insurance will lead to limitations but will encourage a certain conservative and thoughtful approach that will make the daredevils shy away and will perhaps be attractive to other more careful individuals. Start something.
 
Scuba equipment manufacturers have an interesting business model...

With what you are trying to do.... For equipment - look into Deep6. Chris Richardson is the owner of the company. You are starting to see advertising here about it and always talk about it. He has an equipment model that is almost tailored to what you are wanting to do. The big name companies have regions, requirements etc that make it near impossible for anyone to get gear wholesale without going through the regional shop even if they start a new dive shop. Deep6 was more designed for independent instructors, clubs etc. He has a good pricing model and may even work with your 501c but I am not sure. He was the force behind HOG gear so he is not 'new' to this. My wife helps him out here and there so that is my connection with him. We have some Deep6 gear in Florida for the purpose of demos and do lend it out for this purpose. Chris is very enthusiastic about his gear and where he wants to take it!

A couple of people I know also organize trips using Meetup. They will work with a local boat operator and setup a trip based on that. Often, the operator will give them really good discounts and even the organizer for free. Everyone benefits because of full boats and repeat customers.

Insurance - No clue here but my wife formed a company for this purpose. This is to try to start to limit our personal exposure. But even this is a bandage.
 
I think the biggest impediment to local clubs is insurance. It's a chicken and egg problem.

I don't know how much the local club pays for insurance but I don't think it's much. It is also a 501(c)3, but it has the benefit of having been in operation for decades. They do not dive beyond recreational limits.

A new club with no track record that is organizing technical dives would pay much more for insurance.

Strong local clubs would undercut shops on trips, undermine gear sales (where I didn't even mention people sharing information and steering people away from some of those ridiculous purchases like certain recreational BCDs, etc.), and take away training sales. So, local shops, as a rule of thumb, do not want local clubs - except ones that are specifically affiliated with that shop.
...

So, the local shops and the manufacturers all have direct financial incentives for this country to NOT have a large network of clubs, which each have no affiliation to a particular shop.

And that's why I think we don't have ASAC.

I'm finding that the local shops are unsupportive of any kind of networking among divers that isn't controlled by the dive shop. It's ultimately, in the long run, self-defeating, but I agree that they see any kind of club or network as short-term competition.

My first gear purchase was a mask, fins, and snorkel, from a local shop. Since then I've bought everything else for me and my kids either used or from on-line retailers. The prices are so much better. Across the 3 of us we would have spent thousands of dollars more at the LDS. New divers "gearing up" are the largest source of profit for the LDSs, and the LDSs don't want them to know about LeisurePro and DGX, and don't want them to know that there are equally safe, equally functional alternatives to the premium-branded (ScubaPro, Atomic, etc), premium priced, LDS-only merchandise. So yes, clubs are an existential threat to the current LDS business model.
 
Where we are, we do have a number of commercial dive centers, all offering diving on their boats and all offering training. Yes there has in the past been some conflict. This has generally been down to a couple of people (rather than the whole shop) painting the club in a negative light, in some ways we're a threat, in that we offer die trips for a quarter of the price.

Others have been kinder. We don't offer the basic training (we encourage people if they haven't already done so to get their OW and AOW commercially, because we don't have the resources to teach new divers (like a pool or rental equipment) Because we dive where we want and go to "more advanced" sites, sometime the commercial dive centre's direct people our way.

We use the local shop for our gas now (we lost the premises where our compressor used to be and a new one would have been cost prohibitive) and all our servicing, some kit too but most have it all. The workshop manager comes out on some of our dives. This shop in particular derives the majority of income from dive trips and training. But we're no a threat

I don't know how our BSAC 3rd party insurance works, or even if it is worth anything here. Obviously we have our own dive insurance and the boats have insurance etc, as long as we are not commercial. We may not have ambulance chasing lawyers, but we have a legal system that if less flexible than you would find in the US

People are more pragmatic when they join a club, and more responsible for their own actions. A few years ago we had a CCR diver die on a club trip, we weren't subjected to any legal action, although obviously it was investigated. It was viewed as a diving with no external blame.

People often hide behind red tape as a reason not to do something, when actually they can if they put some thought into compliance.

In effect all you are is a bunch of like minded people that want to go diving, similar to those who take friends out on their own boats...
 
Now this thread has been hived off to become stand alone I feel a few realities need to be stated.

BSAC Branches (club) have to be careful not to fall foul of being a commercial entity, under U.K. legislation.

* If the club owns kit or other diving related equipment it cannot change for its use as ownership is mutual. However, a maintenance fee can be charged.

*A club cannot purchase kit then sell it to members. So no competition with local dive shops there.

* Running a compressor, again a club cannot sell gas to non-club members. Most, if not all, dive shops use gas fills as a means of getting divers through the door.

* Organising a dive trip, taking money from a non-BSAC member places the club as a U.K. travel agent. How dive shops deal with this one is their problem.
 

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