JAG has taken the solo diver course, and carries a pony bottle. This was the case where the diver called the dive and the buddy didn't.
Dive Safety In Japan
- Thread starter Titan
- Start date
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I'm going to ponificate again, but there will be a point at the end I promise.
Accident stats are becoming available in Japan but the history is limited, and as Mar Scuba points out the majority of incidents that don't result in severe injury or death are not reported for fear of adverse publicity.
Diving accident stats from DAN around the world, and BSAC in the UK suggest that 80% of all diving related accidents occur at the surface, and the majority of those are boat related.
That said, focus here is the dive operations, not just those that also provide boats, and O2, EAPs, good breifing materials etc should be universal requirements.
An interesting point is that point is that dive shops (ie people or organisations that provide instruction and guide services) carry all the legal responsibility, while dive operations (ie people that provide tanks, boats, and other facilities) have almost none.
The problem here is that the dive operations control most of the important factors in accident mitigation. Dive shops rarely have any control over tank type, quality, or fill, boat procedures or entry and exit methods.
There have been several incidents in Japan over the past 5 years where, following a serious incident, the Dive shop has been forced out of business, while the Dive Operation which was the root cause of the accident have continued largely unscathed. More importantly perhaps, with out learning from their mistakes either. This is sort of chicken and egg, the legal persuit of the dive shop is because they have liability insurance while the operation does not, but in the public's eyes the dive shop must have been responsible beause they were the ones legally persued.
Once again the above is most relevant to the Tokyo/Izu/Chiba area were there is a clear distinction between Dive Shop - Dive Operation - Tank fill services. It would seem that elsewhere the situation is more vertically integrated, as it is abroad.
So I guess my point is that Dive Operations should also be required to carry liability insurance just like DMs and Instructors, even if they only provide tanks and boats.
Given the widening scope of this thread I'm changing the provisional name of our proposed standard to "DiveSafe" until someone comes up with something better.
Titan
Accident stats are becoming available in Japan but the history is limited, and as Mar Scuba points out the majority of incidents that don't result in severe injury or death are not reported for fear of adverse publicity.
Diving accident stats from DAN around the world, and BSAC in the UK suggest that 80% of all diving related accidents occur at the surface, and the majority of those are boat related.
That said, focus here is the dive operations, not just those that also provide boats, and O2, EAPs, good breifing materials etc should be universal requirements.
An interesting point is that point is that dive shops (ie people or organisations that provide instruction and guide services) carry all the legal responsibility, while dive operations (ie people that provide tanks, boats, and other facilities) have almost none.
The problem here is that the dive operations control most of the important factors in accident mitigation. Dive shops rarely have any control over tank type, quality, or fill, boat procedures or entry and exit methods.
There have been several incidents in Japan over the past 5 years where, following a serious incident, the Dive shop has been forced out of business, while the Dive Operation which was the root cause of the accident have continued largely unscathed. More importantly perhaps, with out learning from their mistakes either. This is sort of chicken and egg, the legal persuit of the dive shop is because they have liability insurance while the operation does not, but in the public's eyes the dive shop must have been responsible beause they were the ones legally persued.
Once again the above is most relevant to the Tokyo/Izu/Chiba area were there is a clear distinction between Dive Shop - Dive Operation - Tank fill services. It would seem that elsewhere the situation is more vertically integrated, as it is abroad.
So I guess my point is that Dive Operations should also be required to carry liability insurance just like DMs and Instructors, even if they only provide tanks and boats.
Given the widening scope of this thread I'm changing the provisional name of our proposed standard to "DiveSafe" until someone comes up with something better.
Titan
Yeah, Titan, we are all on the same soapbox.
I have the major dive services listed on my liability insurance as "additional insureds".
BTW, I need to discuss DAN Japan with you this evening.
The problem is that no one has learned anything. It's like we are starting from scratch from day one here. For example, the dive service we use a lot, they get a new boat captain and safety factor goes negative again, even after all the time we spent on the previous guy. Reinvent wheel again.
Anyway, Titan is thinking in one direction by suggesting that we start to educate dive services, boat captains, etc. I am suggesting that we start from the other way, by having EAPs, First Aid Kits, O2 Kits, and the training and mindset to active them if necessary. Then we move on to the dive services. Same goal, different method.
What do you think if PADI Japan made it mandatory for PADI shops to only use PADI certified dive services or dive boats, i.e. ones that have first aid kits, O2, safety training, etc. Just think what an economic benefit that would be to PADI Japan (by having more fees come in from more Resort Associations) and how we might benefit from safer diving procedures.
I have the major dive services listed on my liability insurance as "additional insureds".
BTW, I need to discuss DAN Japan with you this evening.
The problem is that no one has learned anything. It's like we are starting from scratch from day one here. For example, the dive service we use a lot, they get a new boat captain and safety factor goes negative again, even after all the time we spent on the previous guy. Reinvent wheel again.
Anyway, Titan is thinking in one direction by suggesting that we start to educate dive services, boat captains, etc. I am suggesting that we start from the other way, by having EAPs, First Aid Kits, O2 Kits, and the training and mindset to active them if necessary. Then we move on to the dive services. Same goal, different method.
What do you think if PADI Japan made it mandatory for PADI shops to only use PADI certified dive services or dive boats, i.e. ones that have first aid kits, O2, safety training, etc. Just think what an economic benefit that would be to PADI Japan (by having more fees come in from more Resort Associations) and how we might benefit from safer diving procedures.
nori1841
Contributor
There have been 32-13 divers missing and dead per year from 1999-2002 in Japan. The original data is owned by DAN Japan.
http://forum.nifty.com/fdiving/safe.htm
Death has been reported by mass media and police usually investigates a reason so it is impossible to cover up facts.
http://forum.nifty.com/fdiving/safe.htm
Death has been reported by mass media and police usually investigates a reason so it is impossible to cover up facts.
nori1841:
Hmm, how long have you lived in Japan?
Be realistic, coverups occur all the time, not just for diving accidents.
nori1841
Contributor
Yes Mar Scuba,
Generally speaking your point is probably correct but as for Scuba accidents investigating authorities treat them as cases(事件
not accidents(事故 recently.
In the past many diving deaths had been treated just as drowning with simple investigations.
A the result of the change,　diving services have been charged by the police with faults.
We should retrun to dive safety
BTW I'm pure Japanese, living in Japan more than 40 years.
Generally speaking your point is probably correct but as for Scuba accidents investigating authorities treat them as cases(事件
not accidents(事故 recently.In the past many diving deaths had been treated just as drowning with simple investigations.
A the result of the change,　diving services have been charged by the police with faults.
We should retrun to dive safety
BTW I'm pure Japanese, living in Japan more than 40 years.
The DAN data alone would be sufficient to prove my point, This is the same as the UK, but if you look a the UK stats most of them involve decrompression diving.
Mars point is that while its pretty hard to cover up a fatality, there are plenty of non-fatal accidents and near misses that don't find their way into the stats. While this is true all over the world, I would venture to suggest there might be a bigger problem here than the available stats would seem to indicate.
Titan
Mars point is that while its pretty hard to cover up a fatality, there are plenty of non-fatal accidents and near misses that don't find their way into the stats. While this is true all over the world, I would venture to suggest there might be a bigger problem here than the available stats would seem to indicate.
Titan
Would that life be so simple - I am sure some of you know our friendly IANTD person who gave up on a personal project because everyone wanted a slice...
We as foreigers are going to be able to change very little unless we can stir up the local divers. If we refuse to go on their boat because they have no O2 etc how upset will they be?!
A few more years away than Titan's "Cigar" dream... Do I know you by the way? You have a very familiar turn of phrase!!
I once witnessed a Japanese rescue course - Toyo had to tell me off for laughing so much!
Jonathan
We as foreigers are going to be able to change very little unless we can stir up the local divers. If we refuse to go on their boat because they have no O2 etc how upset will they be?!
A few more years away than Titan's "Cigar" dream... Do I know you by the way? You have a very familiar turn of phrase!!
I once witnessed a Japanese rescue course - Toyo had to tell me off for laughing so much!
Jonathan
You might possibly know me yes. Scary that so many people on this forum have been able to identify me by the way I write !?
You are absolutely correct. The only way this could work would be to get the message across to the the Japanese diving community. They are afterall the people who would benefit most from an improvement in the safety standards and market competition. Once motivated japanese consumers are a potent force, that would be hard to deny.....
Its just the inertia is soooo great.
I don't necessarily think that's any reason to give up.
What was the initiative of Toyo's you were refering to ? I've been out of touch for a while and don't know the story
Titan
You are absolutely correct. The only way this could work would be to get the message across to the the Japanese diving community. They are afterall the people who would benefit most from an improvement in the safety standards and market competition. Once motivated japanese consumers are a potent force, that would be hard to deny.....
Its just the inertia is soooo great.
I don't necessarily think that's any reason to give up.
What was the initiative of Toyo's you were refering to ? I've been out of touch for a while and don't know the story
Titan
I think that Jonathan's referring to Titan's bad spelling more than actual phrasing...
Anyway, Jonathan, what about that beer!
We can continue the dive safety discussion over a pint, probably Wednesday in Akasaka or Roppongi.
Cheers,
Anyway, Jonathan, what about that beer!
We can continue the dive safety discussion over a pint, probably Wednesday in Akasaka or Roppongi.
Cheers,
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