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Dive Master Training, Swim Test went back in class

Discussion in 'Going Pro' started by SentinelAce, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. Diving Dubai

    Diving Dubai Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Dubai UAE
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    @American Digger In Europe wasn't marginal. His 800m in fins, mask and snorkel time of 14:30 earned him a score of 4 (max 5 is under 14mins). a 1 (lowest score) is over 21mins. For further context the 400yd surface swim has a max time of 12m (For GUE Fundies, it's a 375yd swim in under 14 min)

    Furthermore the candidate needs to score at least 15 points over the 5 water skills tests. which includes a rescue tow (100yds/m) both divers in full kit against the clock (max time 5 mins for a score of 1) While a candidate might be weaker in one test, it's impossible to pass unless you're strong over the majority

    The 800yd/m test is a stamina test, you get almost the same allotted time as you do for free swimming 400yds/m (different times for yds or metres) Swimming hard breathing through a snorkel and having your legs tire from constant kicking in fins, is part of the challenge. Stopping or raising your head above the water is a fail

    So this candidate isn't marginal in the least - certainly in respect to a lot of divers who whine and complain when they have to use a line to pull against a bit of current because they're so unfit.

    Also your comment about leading a dive.

    When is someone actually going to swim 800 yds to perform a rescue?. If the rescuer is screaming through the water it'll take them at least 14 mins to get to the victim, at which point they'll be in no fit state to assist - let alone tow a victim another 800 yds back perhaps making rescue breaths for the first 2 mins or so...

    Given @American Digger In Europe has a disability and is faster than some 20-30yr olds (at 59) I think he should be applauded - I'd have zero qualms about him being a DM on my boats
     
  2. American Digger In Europe

    American Digger In Europe Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Germany
    59
    39
    18
    Thanks for your kind words @Diving Dubai !

    I have difficulty reasoning the same question: "When is someone actually going to swim 800 yds to perform a rescue?" The answer is 99.999% never!

    The next thing I need to do is ask my Instructor Trainer why he told me the time limit was 15 minutes! LOL! (But I think I know why already.....he always pushes his DM/ Dive Con/ Instructor Candidates past their "imagined" limits.)
     
  3. Sam Miller III

    Sam Miller III Scuba Legend Scuba Legend

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: CALIFORNIA: Where recreational diving began!
    4,865
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    @American Digger In Europe
    stated:
    (But I think I know why already.....he always pushes his DM/ Dive Con/ Instructor Candidates past their "imagined" limits.)
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Good for him ! A tip of the snorkel to him !
    You are so fortunate to have a great instructor !
    SDM
     
  4. American Digger In Europe

    American Digger In Europe Angel Fish

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Germany
    59
    39
    18
    Yes I am! I've learned so much from him! I am very fortunate!
     
  5. TMHeimer

    TMHeimer Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Dartmouth,NS,Canada(Eastern Passage-Atlantic)
    12,034
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    With your backround I figure it's probably just as safe or way safer for a diver to under your watchful eye than many other pros. I asked the question being curious about any one at your shop or dive op (or from the agency) being "picky" if you will, about concerns over your disability. As some may recall, years ago I listed how I would change the (PADI) stamina tests to make them more practical. Sometimes some of the procedures in the old PADI DM course puzzled me, so I was curious if you were given any grief.

    I doubt anybody's perfect when it comes to stamina, swim ability (with or without fins), ability to perform the rescue and tow you did recently, etc. When I took the Rescue Course there were 4 of us, one being a really tiny woman. She did a good job and was told that if she was unable to get a huge diver out of the water to seek help. Suppose there is nobody else present? That would be a negative regarding her rescue ability. Doesn't mean she should be denied Rescue Cert. (she wasn't, of course).

    Regarding the possibility of someone actually doing 800 yards m/f/s for a rescue---
    What is the possibility of someone swimming 200+ yards without fins (a la the 400m regular swim), performing rescue skills, and towing the diver back to land/boat? Maybe slightly more likely than the 800 scenario, but as I mentioned, I'd think long & hard before attempting that. Plus, one of the first rules of the PADI Rescue Course is to always have mask/fins/snorkel ready & easily reachable in case needed.
     
  6. Diving Dubai

    Diving Dubai Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Dubai UAE
    3,116
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    Interesting question. There shouldn't be. Its called (in PADI terms) adaptive diving. As long as the student meets the performance requirements of the skill they're fine

    People like Diveheart would be the experts on that one

    Before my time I guess. Be interested to hear you thoughts again. Although you have to bear in mind the wide variety of environments DM's can operate so had to get a generic skill test that covers all
     
  7. TMHeimer

    TMHeimer Divemaster

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Dartmouth,NS,Canada(Eastern Passage-Atlantic)
    12,034
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    Pretty simple changes I would suggest. Geared toward practical situations both as a working DM or simply a diver.

    400 yd/mtr swim-- Most will disagree with me here. You have to first look at the 200 OW one. Is the purpose to see if one can swim with any proper stroke, to see if one can merely survive without fins/floatation long enough to reach shore/boat? Or the standard "to asses comfortability in water" (whatever that may be)?
    If a proper swim stroke is the idea, then it needn't be as long a swim. Since you would not pass without a proper swim stroke, everyone who got their OW cert. would know how to swim. Thus, a 400 meter DM course swim would not be needed at all. If the idea of the OW swim was to assess "survivability", such a graduate has no business entering a DM course to begin with. Swimming and Scuba are at best distant cousins. While a DM should be a "proper" swimmer, chances of swimming long distances and doing rescues without fins is miniscule. I welcome people mentioning that they have done this.
    800 mask/fin/snorkel-- A good test. Only thing I would add is I would allow use of arms. This is how you'd do it in a real rescue situation. Then, I may increase the distance to perhaps 1200 meters. You can go like a rocket with both fins and arms.
    15 minute float-- What are we testing for? Isn't floating or treading water mostly a test of body buoyancy? Some can float on their back with no sculling/kicking. Some have to beat the water like crazy. So I don't think this is a test of skill, and is not necessarily one of stamina if it is a piece of cake for some. My wife is so positive she can basically float vertically in a pool--with people asking if she is 9 feet tall standing in the deep end. I scored a 5 on it the only way I could. I did the 13 mins. fine (lots of work), but wouldn't have been able to then do the 2 minutes hands out if I were 18 years old. So I drownproofed and it was a piece of cake. Maybe a change would be to make this float test a lot longer (like 30 mins./an hour, but who would have the time for that), since you may find yourself in the middle of Lake Erie for 3 hours or a lifetime. Again, what are we really testing for?
    100 Tired Diver Tow/push-- A great test for a very practical skill, and one that does involve stamina. Only thing I would do if vary the time scores based on the number of turns you have to do. In a very small pool you may make God knows how many turns at pool's ends. Turns take a LOT of time. Larger pool, 4 turns? This test may also be done in open water--calm water & no turns means shaving a ton of time off.

    We all know the equipment exchange was added and scored about 10 years ago. This has recently been discussed. Other than that, I don't know what, if anything has ever changed with the original 4 tests and welcome any information.
     

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