DIRF book

[CincyBengalsFan]

Mike,

You and I soundl like one here. I agree on the extension class. That is a great great idea. We are going to introduce something like that soon. I have a class starting tonight so maybe we can talk about it then. Moving slow on the underwater tour should almost be mandatory. I to move slow and stop often to point at guages, air supply, etc. etc. etc. They learn bouyancy at a faster rate this way. Thanks for the great advice

BMS

 

[sheck33]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
bengalsmgtsucks,
You are right, you can't just have a long expensive class that tries to turn out expert divers. I don't have all the answers but in seeing how people dive and looking at how we teach there are some obviouse deficiencies. Some are easily fixed. One thing that we have done is to make sure students know what good diving looks like before they finish the class. They need to know what to practice. beyond that they need to choose. Many classes don't get them that far. I am also considering an OW extension sort of class. Get them certified and get a few dives under their belt then go rehash and refine it all. To do it within existing standards (in our case PADI) one could use the Scuba Review/ppb standards. That takes care of insurance and paper work issues.

So the whole idea looks like this...OW class of reasonable length and cost. In this course everything is put on the table and of course includes lots of obvious improvements over what most schools teach. Then for those who are interested enough you provide the extension as described above. Now the ones who want it can buy it. The ones who are happy going to Cozumel and crawling on the bottom can do so but are informed about the choice they have made. ..................................<snip>

Amen to that Mike

 

[Jonathan]

Are you starting a new agency MikeFerrara ut: ? Seriously though I like your ideas, I just wonder how much take up you would get.....

There was another comment earlier about when you get you C card you can then dive anywhere - not so. I believe somewhere when you sign it says something about conditions similar or better than where you trained. Great for us in the UK or the NE/NW coast in the US - we really can dive almost anywhere!

There is often comment about the number of cards in my log book - this is because I was under no illusion that o/w meant I could dive in the UK. So I took my own MikeF post o/w course by doing a lot of (relevant) specialities in a very short period of time after o/w - and all in the UK.

I am also naturally nosey so am always looking at people gear asking why's that there, what's this for etc, and as you mention students tend to emulate their instructors and DM's. Unfortunately there are too many out there that really are not up to the Mark - especially in warm water regions. I know some instructors who if they were back home I would leave them on the boat as a buddy and take a UK trained AOW diver instead...

Jonathan

 

[Scuba446]

detroit diver,
Right on! I paid a hell of alot more that the DIRF price for MY BOW certification.

'Nuff said!

 

[JamesK]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
I was midwater on a knight dive.

Shiny armour and all?!?!?! ut:

 

[madmole]

The only bad thing about the book is that JJ does not know his hand signals. These were all internationally agreed in the 70's so there is no excuse for that fact that on page 31, 2 of the 3 signals shown are stupidly wrong

OK is fine

A clenched fist held up means "I am on Reserve" and not stop as he says, Thats an open palm

A cut throat (Across, left to right) symbol means "Danger" not out of air. "Out of air" is signalled by a CHOP to the throat (front back movement). "Give me Air" is signalled by a cupped hand jabbed finger side towards the mouth

These are from the 1972 BSAC training manual and were agreed apon by Padi, Naui, SAA and others at a big conference

I have noticed when diving in the US though that many divers dont know all the signals (I can understand not knowing "I cant pull my Reserve"). Standards throughout the rest of the world is fortunately better. But there again the Americans dont even understand the international "A" flag (I have divers down keep well clear and at low speed) that the rest oif the world uses and that has LEGAL meaning even in US waters ut: At least the users of this forum should know it exists

 

[sheck33]

Originally posted by madmole
The only bad thing about the book is that JJ does not know his hand signals. These were all internationally agreed in the 70's so there is no excuse for that fact that on page 31, 2 of the 3 signals shown are stupidly wrong

OK is fine

A clenched fist held up means "I am on Reserve" and not stop as he says, Thats an open palm

A cut throat (Across, left to right) symbol means "Danger" not out of air. "Out of air" is signalled by a CHOP to the throat (front back movement). "Give me Air" is signalled by a cupped hand jabbed finger side towards the mouth

These are from the 1972 BSAC training manual and were agreed apon by Padi, Naui, SAA and others at a big conference

That means that a lot pf PADI instructors dont know their handsignals either since they use your 'danger' signal for 'out of air' I have been diving for a while and i have never heard of divers using a cut throat signal for 'danger. Not to mention the fact that in an emergency it's going to be tough to distinguish between cut throat and a chop dont you think? Also, if GUE decided on some handsignals that are not in the BSAC manual, and i dont know if that is the case or not, the have the freedom to do so, any agency for that matter. A buddy pair or group of exploration divers can decide on whatever handsignal they want. What is FAR more important than WHAT handsignal is used for a particular situation is the fact ALL divers in the group AGREE on whatever handsignal they decide to use.

how do others think about this?

 

[roakey]

If they were agreed to “in the 70s” I have some doubts about your ‘72 source, since if it has a 72 date on it, it was probably being worked on in 70 & 71, which could possibly be before an agreement “in the 70s” was reached.

The 1990 PADI manual clearly shows “out of air” as a sawing motion across the throat, not a chopping motion.

If these two vastly different, but similar signals were agreed to “in the 70s” then all the agencies involved must have been on drugs. I don’t want to be trying to stuff a reg in my buddy’s mouth when there’s a boat behind me about to mow us down.

In addition, using the sawing motion across your throat to signal “danger” violates one of the first requirements of hand signals: They should require only one hand. If you’re sawing with one hand you have to be pointing with another at the danger, a bad thing.

The PADI manual shows the symbol for danger is a clenched fist pointed towards the source of danger. One hand. Perfect.

I find I use both the flat palm and the clenched fist symbol, but with subtle differences. I consider the “stop” flat palm to mean, “stop what you’re doing” whereas the clenched fist “hold” means “stay right where you are.”

Roak

 

[madmole]

Padi were still using the chop to the throat as "Out of air" in the mediteranean in the early 80's when I last did some training with them. SAA, CMAS and BSAC still do, so that puts PADI in a real minority, diver numbers wise, if thats what they are teaching now. Cant speak for the tech agencies

The agreement on 2 signals, one for "out of air" and one for "give me air" was to cover the situatiuon's where you want to call the dive cos you have an air problem but dont want to share as you have an alternative. personally I've never had to use them for real as I manage my buddies and my own air. But I suspect a panicking diver snatching your mouthpiece from your mouth is a big enough clue

Didn't want the post to come across as a moan or preach. I'm not worried what signals folks use (As long as the buddy pairs agree on them before they dive). I was trying to point out that not everything that the DIR lot write of do is perfect and must be tempered with your experiance and situations. A lot of what they say is very good stuff though (I dive a long hose as primary and that was a change in my kit that was pronpted by the book)

What I also wanted to get across was the message that not everyone uses the same signals and that divers must be aware of this and cover them as part of the buddy check if they are diving with someone they dont know well

 

[Jonathan]

madmole wrote

What I also wanted to get across was the message that not everyone uses the same signals and that divers must be aware of this and cover them as part of the buddy check if they are diving with someone they dont know well

could't agree more. Yesterday whilst diving I was asked my air, I started to give my reply my buddy signalled OK after I had done the first bit and turned round.

What I was trying to tell him was 130 bar - I was taught in the UK and told this is left palm flat and chop with right palm for 100 and then hold up 3 fingers for 30. The first signal it also transpires is half tank (near as damn it 100 bar hence the sign no doubt) and that's what he thought I had. When I asked him how to signal 130 he said something along the lines of oh I don't know 1 finger, followed by 3 followed by draw a zero in the water....

I won't even go into the story about the buddy (trained by the same instructor) that mixed up 100 and 50 signals that almost lead to OOA......

Jonathan