DIRF, A Sobering Experience

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by MikeFerrara
detroit diver,
Why would you let some jamoke on a charter boat dictate your gas management. But the answer is that they are prabably trying to force you into some kind of a gas management plan with a reserve.

I don't let anyone dictate my gas. But I was trying to start a dialog on gas management. Most people doing 70-90 foot dives and surfacing with 500 psi in an AL80 don't realize that they don't have enough gas for themselves and a buddy in an emergency-without either bending or killing themselves.

 

[roakey]

It's so I can bob around on the surface breathing from my reg with waves crashing over me while divers in front of me fiddle around on the ladder. And so I can climb the ladder and exit the water with the reg still in my mouth.

I've never understood the "spit out the reg the moment your hands hit the ladder" mindset. More than once I've found myself walking around on deck to my station with the reg still in my mouth.

I usually figure it out when someone asks me a question. Like "Why are you still breathing off your reg?"

Roak

 

[MikeFerrara]

roakey,
If they are interested enough to get the right gear you are home free. Lots of them still just want to go on vacation though. Some have selective hearing and understanding. There are success stories. A student I certified only a couple of weeks ago baught a bp/wing set up in prep for a Cozumel trip. BTW not one of the places I reccomend for new divers. He has dived like a mad man with me and or some of our DM's and regular divers since. He was in the pool with us last night to check his harness adjustment and weighting with the suit he will wear in Cozumel (realizing that salt water will be a little different) The guy looks like a pro in the water after about 20 dives. A little less flutter and alittle more frog and we'll have something.

Leading to what? Come out with it.
Our school equipment is a cross between optimal and less that optimal. We have significantly changed the way we teach since we purchased much of it. We're working on replacing/adding it but we must pace the expendatures. All bc's are back inflation but we will eventually get bp's and use the others for renting to people off the street or sell them off. We of course use a long hose for the primary with the alt on a short hose around the neck. We're getting there.

 

[MikeFerrara]

detroit diver,
Your right they don't have enough. But, if you have no idea what your consumption is, how would you know how much gas is required for both of you to ascend and do a safety stop? There is more to gas management than watching your gauge.

 

[roakey]

Originally posted by Rick L
Hi
Iv'e been reading lots of dir type discussions of late.
My question is: Is it still fun and enjoyable to dive?
It almost makes every part of diving sound like work?
Or is there difference in the type of dir diving you are doing(rec deep cave wreck?)Or do you keep the same mental attatude
no matter what you are doing in the water? Or is it that you get so used to doing all the prep stuff that it becomes 2nd nature to you?

I have MORE fun and MORE enjoyment diving now that I’m DIR than I’ve had since I was diving in Saipan in the mid 70s (with a backplate, surprise, surprise!)

Rick L, I don’t know if you ski or not, but let me use a skiing analogy. PADI teaches you how to snowplow. PADI TecRec teaches you how to snowplow on the black diamond runs (sorry, had to say it ). Do folks enjoy snowplowing? Sure, lots of snowbunnies just learn to snowplow and that’s as far as they get. But some folks want to learn to ski better. Most probably don’t want to do the black diamond runs, they just want to ski a little better and easier and improve their enjoyment of the sport.

So they take a class. Now the class involves some work and some practice. They may not enjoy the work and practice as much as unstructured skiing, but after the work and practice they know how to Stem Christie or Parallel. They’re able to ski easier, with more confidence and less effort. They enjoy themselves more.

DIR is even easier than the analogy I gave above. PADI teaches you to snowplow. It also teaches you to sit back on your skis and hold the poles behind you, unfortunately. But the web is a wonderful place to learn to a certain extent. You can progress by leaps and bounds just by using the information on the web, you never need to take a DIRF class and you can still improve you diving immensely. But it takes a little work and a little practice, but next time you hit the water for unstructured diving you’ll see the difference. Even “just” the web can move you forward significantly if you dedicate some time and energy to actually practicing skills. This means dedicating a dive, or part of a dive to actually working on your form, just like practicing skiing. You’ll see the results in your diving immediately. Even just substituting the proper equipment like a backplate and wings and not changing anything else, your diving will be come easier.

We don’t configure DIR because we want to be different, we do it because it makes diving easier.

There’s nothing wrong at stopping at “web taught” DIR. It’s a step in the right direction and not everyone wants to ski the double diamonds. But there are rewards for those that continue in their training.

I was “web taught” DIR for about a year or two. My diving rose well above my peers and then I took Cave I from JJ and Ted Cole and got my ego hammered flat. It’s part of the learning process. I came out of Cave I even better than I was before, and still far below my instructors. I know what’s possible and will continue to work in that direction.

But when I jump off the boat into a kelp bed I’m not thinking trim, I’m not thinking configuration, I’m not thinking drag or what to do in an OOA situation, I’m looking at the pretty fishes. Because I’ve worked on trim, configuration, drag and OOA procedures when I was in more boring locations, the unstructured diving is automatic, easy and very, very fun.

This is why us DIR folks are so vocal. Uninformed folks think it’s only for technical divers. They think it’s a lot of work. Well it’s not and it’s easy unless you want to get into double diamonds (technical diving). And you think you’re having fun now? You don’t know what’s possible, trust me.

Roak

 

[trheeltek]

Ok, dialogue on gas management - Not sure I agree with this:

Originally posted by detroit diver


I don't let anyone dictate my gas. But I was trying to start a dialog on gas management. Most people doing 70-90 foot dives and surfacing with 500 psi in an AL80 don't realize that they don't have enough gas for themselves and a buddy in an emergency-without either bending or killing themselves.

Actually, I think they do have enough. They surfaced with 500 PSI from 90 ft. Ok, so they left the bottom with some larger quantity of gas. How much depends on ascent rate, safety stop, and SAC. But, I don't know that stuff, so let's just pretend they used no air on the way up, and left the bottom with 500 PSI.

Now, let's say their buddy had a bad day and ran out of air at the bottom. If they're both within the NDL and start air-sharing at 90 ft with 500 PSI, then immediately start their ascent, they should have no problem making the surface without bending themselves. They've got a little more than 13 cub. ft of gas left, or 6.5 each. Ascending at 60 ft/min, they're at 30ft in a minute. Even breathing pretty heavy, they've still got enough left to take a deep breath and CESA. From 30 ft in OW, a little scary but should be no big deal. In fact, they'd most likely have enough gas to make the surface or darn close.

The larger issue is, under normal conditions I'd bet you neither of the divers knows how much air they'd use on the way up, so cannot compute a turnaround pressure. My experience with fellow recreational divers is they sometimes know generally how much they need based on past dives, but at a new depth or with a new tank, they're lost. Fortunately, at less than 100 feet with no overhead, they can probably afford some stupidity. Any deeper, and it gets a little sticky. Overheads (virtual or otherwise) obviously change things completely.

 

[sheck33]

Originally posted by Lost Yooper
Thanks everyone.

Cincy Diver,

Roakey is right. I have the dive master cert. and it's worth about as much as the plastic it's written on. I knew that when I took it and knew it prior to taking this class. This class simply reinforced it. "Master" of what is what I'd like to know. I can assure you the instructors that I took that class with were saying exactly that regarding their own piece of plastic.

ElectricZombie,

The skills were pretty straight forward: kicks, air sharing, valve drills, mask removal (with eyes closed), etc. The trick was the trim and buoyancy control that GUE requires while doing those skills.

Ben,

It is critical for everyone to understand that the instructors did NOTHING to make anyone feel like crud. We took care of that ourselves. There was no humiliation on their part at all. We took care of that ourselves. There was absolutely NO abuse on the part of the instructors.
Yes, they worked exhaustively to help those who had a chance of getting better. In fact, I had individual attention several times trying to arch my friggen back so I could master proper trim and that back kick. I could have spent two weeks with Andrew working on that alone and may still never gotten it.

It was clear to me that the instructors wanted to be there, wanted to help, and wanted to produce better divers. There was absolutely NO feeling of economic pressure from any of them. It didn't feel like they were doing this for the money. There was an overwhelming feeling of mission regarding everything they were doing. This wasn't elitism, or attitude, or any of that BS we hear about on these boards. This was about basic skills that nobody in our class could do regardless of the number dives, types of certs, or type of diver.

LD,

There wasn't any humiliation or abuse on their part. They didn't have to.



Good luck to all who are going to take it. My advice is to go in prepared to fail, prepared to learn, and be prepared to ask yourselves if you have what it takes to practice until you get it. How much dedication do you have? If your an instructor or divemaster (or charter captain) be prepared to take a hard look at your morals because they will stare at you once you've finished.



AMEN, so true, the GUE instructors in my DIRF class were fabulous
And i was humbled too, jeez did i learn about my diving skills, i learned more in that DIRF class than ALL prior classes combined.
And i have a problem with the other agencies, when i help out with those classes i feel i am helping those students fool themselves.

 

[Lost Yooper]

Originally posted by large_diver
Kind of curious about a couple of points....

I just bought my BP 2 months ago (FredT) and set the harness up myself.

Curious about what guidance they gave regarding the following:

- Harness tightness
- Chest D ring positioning
- Backplate positioning (high high/low on your body)
- Tank positioning
- Other general comments about gear config. that may have surprised you or that seemed to be an issue with lots of folks

Thanks!

-Chris

Let's see:

I was overweighted, which I knew about but hadn't messed with. I didn't realize the enormous impact it had though.

My plate was too low and straps too loose.

Bolt snap on primary reg was too small (duh).

Switched to a break away o-ring for primary bolt snap attachment (duh).

Valve knobs need to be changed to the easier to use rubber ones (again, I knew this too but hadn't gotten to it).

My undergarmet is poorly made and needs to be replaced as it prohibits good flexibility.

My suit may be on the chopping block too.

Hmmm, I think that's about it. As I've said quite a bit over the years, I'm a net taught DIR guy. I know the theory about as well as one can know it. I bought most of my stuff site unseen and untried several years ago. I never had the opppotunity to have someone show me the how-to's of it all until last weekend. In fact, those were the first strict DIRer's that I ever met in person much less dove with!

I agree with one of Roakey's posts where he said that even net based learning of DIR increases your safety and enjoyment of diving. Having the hands-on did more in two days than I got in four or five years of net learning regarding skills. I think I have a stratedgy that will get my trim right. I'll have to try it this weekend.

Mike

PS. I'm glad this thread was useful for so many future DIRF students.

 

[neil]

Originally posted by VTWarrenG
Neil,
Strangely enough, the failure rate of some of my high-level engineering and physics courses in college was very close to 50% -- yet the professors and the University were still highly praised.
- Warren

Warren,
I'm very surprised to know that. What it means, I haven't a clue. When 50% of MY college students start to fail, I'm quitting teaching. If you are going to set the standard high, as in DIR, you have to set the standard for instruction high as well. IMHO. Maybe someone will let me observe a DIRF class to assess teaching technique?
Neil

 

[detroit diver]

Originally posted by trheeltek
Ok, dialogue on gas management - Not sure I agree with this:

Actually, I think they do have enough. They surfaced with 500 PSI from 90 ft. Ok, so they left the bottom with some larger quantity of gas. How much depends on ascent rate, safety stop, and SAC. But, I don't know that stuff, so let's just pretend they used no air on the way up, and left the bottom with 500 PSI.

Now, let's say their buddy had a bad day and ran out of air at the bottom. If they're both within the NDL and start air-sharing at 90 ft with 500 PSI, then immediately start their ascent, they should have no problem making the surface without bending themselves. They've got a little more than 13 cub. ft of gas left, or 6.5 each. Ascending at 60 ft/min, they're at 30ft in a minute. Even breathing pretty heavy, they've still got enough left to take a deep breath and CESA. From 30 ft in OW, a little scary but should be no big deal. In fact, they'd most likely have enough gas to make the surface or darn close.

The larger issue is, under normal conditions I'd bet you neither of the divers knows how much air they'd use on the way up, so cannot compute a turnaround pressure. My experience with fellow recreational divers is they sometimes know generally how much they need based on past dives, but at a new depth or with a new tank, they're lost. Fortunately, at less than 100 feet with no overhead, they can probably afford some stupidity. Any deeper, and it gets a little sticky. Overheads (virtual or otherwise) obviously change things completely.

Sorry, not even close. We're talking a SAFE ascent here, not a "get bent and fix it on the surface" ascent. Shooting to 20 feet at 60fpm ain't gonna keep you clean.

Here's the math (and you need all of the SAC, ascent rate, and stop times for it):

2 divers emergency situation @ 1 cuft/min = 2 cuft/min
average ATA = 2
consumption: 4 cuft/min
1 minute to get your stuff together after an OOA.
1.5 minutes to get to 40 feet at 30 feet/ minute
1 min stop at 40 feet
1 min stop at 30 feet
1 min stop at 20 feet
1 min stop at 10 feet

Thats 6 1/2 min x 4 cuft/min = 26 cuft of gas.

Average AL80: 77.5 cuft gas, 2800 psi.

26 / 77.5 = .33 x 2800 psi = 924 psi required.

You're bent, dead, or lucky at 500 psi. I don't like either of these options. I like knowing I can get out of the water and have a sandwich.