DIR / Hogarthian

[MHK]

Actually, PADI takes their fair share of bashing ... and if they want to lay claim to being the ones responsible for how most of the world dives (as evidenced at tourist dive sites the world over), then they're asking to get bashed ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,

The PADI bashing usually has little to do with their slogan, as opposed to ideas they advocate such as e-learning, or remote learning, or the manner with which they are willing to compromise their classes in favor of greater inclusion. Anyway, I'd rather this thread not break off into a PADI bashing direction, inasmuch as I was merely trying to point out that slogans are just that, slogans and I usually see such a disproportionate sense of moral outrage because GUE usues the term "Doing it Right" whereas I hardly ever see even a remote sense of annoyance when PADI proclaim that there methodology is "THE" way to learn, or an equivalent sense of irritation when Dive Rite imply's that you either use Dive Rite or you're using Dive Wrong gear..

Regards,

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob,

The PADI bashing usually has little to do with their slogan, as opposed to ideas they advocate such as e-learning, or remote learning, or the manner with which they are willing to compromise their classes in favor of greater inclusion. Anyway, I'd rather this thread not break off into a PADI bashing direction, inasmuch as I was merely trying to point out that slogans are just that, slogans and I usually see such a disproportionate sense of moral outrage because GUE usues the term "Doing it Right" whereas I hardly ever see even a remote sense of annoyance when PADI proclaim that there methodology is "THE" way to learn, or an equivalent sense of irritation when Dive Rite imply's that you either use Dive Rite or you're using Dive Wrong gear..

Regards,

I was mostly being tongue-in-cheek ... as a marketing tool, choosing the DIR label was a great business decision. If it bothers some, then I think that's really not such a bad thing in the larger perspective

On the other hand, people really need to remember that the whole point of scuba diving is to relax and have fun ... and if labels are what bothers someone, then perhaps that person is focusing on the wrong aspects of the activity.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaScott]

On the other hand, people really need to remember that the whole point of scuba diving is to relax and have fun ... and if labels are what bothers someone, then perhaps that person is focusing on the wrong aspects of the activity.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Right on, Bob.

SS

 

[bedmund]

...as I was merely trying to point out that slogans are just that, slogans and I usually see such a disproportionate sense of moral outrage because GUE usues the term "Doing it Right" whereas I hardly ever see even a remote sense of annoyance when PADI proclaim that there methodology is "THE" way to learn, or an equivalent sense of irritation when Dive Rite imply's that you either use Dive Rite or you're using Dive Wrong gear..

Regards,

I agree that a company's slogans don't mean much and shouldn't provoke someone. However, (and I'm not a PADI diver mind you) I've never heard of the PADI chief saying if someone doesn't dive the PADI way, then they're "squirrels" and don't dive with them or they'll kill you. I think the problem folks have with DIR isn't so much the slogan as the statements that have been made by some of the DIR chiefs. Anyway, that's my opinion.

-Bill

edit: What's this doing in the DIR forum. I thought I was in the Hog forum. Sorry guys, I'm really not trying to start anything. Just following a thread. :11:

 

[Reinoud]

I like DA Aquamaster's explanation since it mirrors my own opinion. Although I strongly dislike the inference by DIR advocates that they have THE right way to dive for all purposes, locations, etc., I do like some of the principles espoused by both Hogarthian and DIR.

If you read DIR as "A way to do it right" it sounds a lot more friendly ";-)

I think DIR is a great system, but for some types of dives there are alternatives to do things safely. When everything you do is diving no deeper dan 10 metres in cristal clear tropical waters you will survive without doubles and a long hose...

On the other hand, having learned to dive in horizontal trim and having mastered the backwards frogkick has increased the fun for me even for dives like that!

 

[MHK]

I agree that a company's slogans don't mean much and shouldn't provoke someone. However, (and I'm not a PADI diver mind you) I've never heard of the PADI chief saying if someone doesn't dive the PADI way, then they're "squirrels" and don't dive with them or they'll kill you. I think the problem folks have with DIR isn't so much the slogan as the statements that have been made by some of the DIR chiefs.

I think you are comingling two issues here. On the one hand, there have been countless threads and comments respecting the DIR slogan as a stand alone complaint. Many suggest that it's condescending and presumptious that if you aren't Doing it Right, you're doing it wrong. To that end, I have always said it's some making a mountain out of a molehill, since as I've highlighted, other agencies/companies use equally descriptive slogans..

As to the second point about not diving with those that don't subscribe to the DIR philosophy, I guess those that don't subscribe to our philosophy have a difficult time understanding that point. Consider this if you will, one of our bedrock principles that we train on time and time again is uniformity amongst the team and the response during an emergency. To put aside that bedrock principle, and allow non-uniformly trained divers into our dive team, compromises the very approach that we subscribe to and introduces the very variable that we are trying to eliminate from our diving. We train as a team, we equip like a team and we respond the same as a result. I don't have to wonder where my buddies knife or back up light is in an emergency. I don't have to wonder if my buddy has an AirII, or an octopus in an OOA. I don't have to wonder where my buddies back up mask is, and so on. We reduce the variables by avoiding divers that are willing to dive with the added risk. Now could some of us have done a better job initially at saying so, I would offer probably.. I think JJ has done an exceptional job recently at reigning in those type of incendiary comments, but I've always said that irrespective of the fact that if someone called me a "squirrel" but provided a safer way to do something, why wouldn't I still adopt that which keeps me safer despite what was said on a cyber forum?

Just my thoughts..

Regards,

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think you are comingling two issues here. On the one hand, there have been countless threads and comments respecting the DIR slogan as a stand alone complaint. Many suggest that it's condescending and presumptious that if you aren't Doing it Right, you're doing it wrong. To that end, I have always said it's some making a mountain out of a molehill, since as I've highlighted, other agencies/companies use equally descriptive slogans..

I agree ...

As to the second point about not diving with those that don't subscribe to the DIR philosophy, I guess those that don't subscribe to our philosophy have a difficult time understanding that point. Consider this if you will, one of our bedrock principles that we train on time and time again is uniformity amongst the team and the response during an emergency. To put aside that bedrock principle, and allow non-uniformly trained divers into our dive team, compromises the very approach that we subscribe to and introduces the very variable that we are trying to eliminate from our diving. We train as a team, we equip like a team and we respond the same as a result. I don't have to wonder where my buddies knife or back up light is in an emergency. I don't have to wonder if my buddy has an AirII, or an octopus in an OOA. I don't have to wonder where my buddies back up mask is, and so on. We reduce the variables by avoiding divers that are willing to dive with the added risk. Now could some of us have done a better job initially at saying so, I would offer probably.. I think JJ has done an exceptional job recently at reigning in those type of incendiary comments, but I've always said that irrespective of the fact that if someone called me a "squirrel" but provided a safer way to do something, why wouldn't I still adopt that which keeps me safer despite what was said on a cyber forum?

I think a more relevent question would be "why would you want to dive with someone who doesn't want to dive with you ... regardless of the reason?"

I think that in the recreational world (where most of us do our diving), this is less of an issue than it may appear. I've been diving with DIR-trained divers since long before I decided to adopt the gear or learn about the methodology. In the beginning, they were less concerned about my gear configuration than they were my desire to improve my basic skills, develop good buddy habits, and take an overall safe approach to our dives. Granted, they would limit the types of dives we did, and not take me on certain dives they would do with other DIR divers ... but in hindsight that was a responsible thing to do (and, I might add, tech-trained divers from other agencies made similar decisions).

As you get into more advanced diving, similarity in training and gear configurations amongst the team becomes increasingly important ... but I've run into very few DIR-trained divers who would refuse to dive with a non-DIR trained diver if the dive profile was compatible with that diver's skills. Now, to be honest, there are a few around here who wouldn't dive with someone who hasn't taken and passed the same classes they have ... but that's their choice and comfort level. No big whoop ... we should all choose our dive buddies based on our own criteria ... and compatible training, skills, and team mentality are as good as any I can think of.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[menemsha43]

when if you go to PADI's very own website, and look at their very own slogan they claim to be "'THE' way the world learns to dive", but yet I never see anyone get so similiarly upset with respect to the presumption on behalf of PADI that they are "THE" way the entire world learns to dive..

Maybe no one gets upset because the PADI slogan is more like simple marketing, not them espousing that they have cornered the market in proper diving techniques. Isn't it just commercial positioning really? At least that's the way I read it. Kinda like "Don't leave home without it" for American Express

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree with much of your analysis, however I want to clarify the above point. The DIR "indoctrination", such as the term was used, isn't designed to replace critical thinking, in fact, I would argue just the opposite. We spend significant time training and working on simulated scenario's of critical thinking. Where I suspect we do differ from the Hogarthian crowd in this respect is that our solution(s) are more aligned with a team solution, whereas I suspect the Hogarthian approach is more aligned with an individual solution. It seems to me that training as a team, and developing critical skills thinking uniformly amongst a unified team, provides for a wider variety of solutions when juxtaposed against one sole individuals more limited amount of options.

So I don't think we "indoctrinate" to the exclusion of critical thinking, I believe we develop critical thinking patterns to think of your team first, and to incorporate critical thinking that provides for a wider variety of options..

I'm willing to meet you half way on that one and state that indoctrination and training certainly has it's uses and is an excellent way to covey a large amount of information and obtain a great degree of standardization in minimum time. After all it has been the chosen approach for military training for at least the last century.

However one of the things I noted in newly trained military recruits is that while they all reached a comparable level of training and indoctrination, they were not really what you would call completely sane, reliable, or proficient until they acquired some experience and several months of seasoning to wear off some of the rough spots and idealism.

My experience with DIR divers has been more limited but some seem to show the same need for more experience and seasoning. I have encountered a memorable few that give the impression that their vastly superior DIR training has left them nearly bullet proof and much like many new recruits they seem to groove on the idea of being a member of the "team" and seem to believe that is a suitable substitute for experience. Over confident to the point of being dangerous is a good way to describe it.

A few have also had the balls to suggest that my superb bouyancy control and skills based on 20 years of diving experience cannot really be considered superb until I have taken a DIRF course. I worry when people put their faith in a short course where a finite amount of information is conveyed in a controlled setting and feel that leaves them superior to those who have already been there and been doing it for years.

From a psychological perspective, indoctrination of a new belief system about anything sresults in a change in values that is not always well balanced. This balance then has to be acheived over time as the person experiences events and makes slight adjustments and modifications to their newly acquired belief system and explores the limits of those beliefs. In the military, new recruits are mixed in with more experienced troops in line units who then smack them along side the head, psychologically speaking, as needed to keep the puppy like enthusiasm in check and help them mature into decent and reliable troops. The more experienced troops and NCO's provide a reality check and foster the development of a certain degree of flexibility in the recruit over time.

However, I am not certain how this maturation process is supposed to work for DIR divers that are trained and then sent out into the world on their own, or paired with a similarly inexperienced DIR buddy. I suspect the lack of a means to acheive this balance and tolerance of alternative methods is perhaps one of the reasons for the annoying 10% of DIR divers who give a bad name to most of the rest.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I have encountered a memorable few that give the impression that their vastly superior DIR training has left them nearly bullet proof and much like many new recruits they seem to groove on the idea of being a member of the "team" and seem to believe that is a suitable substitute for experience. Over confident to the point of being dangerous is a good way to describe it.

A few have also had the balls to suggest that my superb bouyancy control and skills based on 20 years of diving experience cannot really be considered superb until I have taken a DIRF course. I worry when people put their faith in a short course where a finite amount of information is conveyed in a controlled setting and feel that leaves them superior to those who have already been there and been doing it for years.

From a psychological perspective, indoctrination of a new belief system about anything sresults in a change in values that is not always well balanced. This balance then has to be acheived over time as the person experiences events and makes slight adjustments and modifications to their newly acquired belief system and explores the limits of those beliefs. In the military, new recruits are mixed in with more experienced troops in line units who then smack them along side the head, psychologically speaking, as needed to keep the puppy like enthusiasm in check and help them mature into decent and reliable troops. The more experienced troops and NCO's provide a reality check and foster the development of a certain degree of flexibility in the recruit over time.

However, I am not certain how this maturation process is supposed to work for DIR divers that are trained and then sent out into the world on their own, or paired with a similarly inexperienced DIR buddy. I suspect the lack of a means to acheive this balance and tolerance of alternative methods is perhaps one of the reasons for the annoying 10% of DIR divers who give a bad name to most of the rest.

LOL - one of my dive buddies ... someone who has been through the Tech and Cave regimen with GUE ... once suggested that new DIR-F grads should be quarantined for six months, just to protect the outside world from their "enthusiam". It was said totally tongue-in-cheek, but suffice it to say that there is some kernel of truth behind what you've observed. A lot of DIR-F grads come out of the class either evangelical or so bummed at themselves they're ready to burn their gear and take up bowling. Those in the former category can be a bit ... trying ... at times. You just have to know how to take them, I suppose.

On the other hand, I would say the 10% figure (those "who give DIR a bad name") is fairly inflated ... at least in my experience. Among the several dozen GUE-trained divers I've been exposed to it boils down to maybe four or five people who tend to take the whole thing way too seriously. Unfortunately, those are the ones who either spend way too much time on the Internet or they manage to wiggle their way into staff positions at the local GUE shop ... where they have way more than representative exposure to the outside world.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)