DIR/GUE OW class

[Kim]

For those that have been through other curriculums and still found yourself wanting; purchased equipment that you also found less than satisfying, then took a fundamentals course; you re-purchased both education and equipment. what would it have been worth to skip that process and start on day one with what you have now come to chose as the way you dive?

The thing is though that the people who did the above might not have come to GUE unless they first got into diving easily, liked it enough to want to get better, and then researched what was going on and who offered what in terms of better education.
If you liken this process to other sports - skiing, golf, tennis....almost any individual type sport or hobby - people don't normally start out on day one with the best equipment and coaches/trainers. Normally they do a sort of entry level thing, and then if they really find that it clicks and they want to get really immersed - they upgrade and spend more serious money as well as giving a longer time commitment to it.
The question here is more about how many total beginners are really going to be prepared to make such a commitment BEFORE they've even been in the water once. That has to be a huge gamble for most to say the least.
Maybe GUE should consider something like the 'Discover Scuba' type dive!

(Sorry...my last remark is probably a bit flippant, but I'm sure you know what I mean! )

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

But you both miss my point ...

Students completing the GUE ow course will not be required to complete the fundamentals program, as all content in fundamentals will be covered in the ow curriculum, plus some added content.

Yes, but ... most DIR-F candidates do not "complete" their Fundamentals education when they take the class. In fact, those who pass are the exception rather than the rule. They are typically given a "provisional" rating, and told to go practice for a period of time, then come back and try again.

That model won't work with OW students, since they won't have a certification prior to "passing" the OW class ... therefore being able to go "practice" will be somewhat problematic. How will this be addressed? Or is it your belief that, unlike the typical DIR-F student of today, having OW students start out in this system will make it easier for them to pass the Fundamentals curriculum during the original class period.

You know all too well my diving history, so I would have gladly forked over the money to start this way from the beginning. I could have saved myself untold aggrivation and quite a bit of money.

As they say ... hindsight is 20/20 ... would you have been willing to listen to someone telling you about all the money you'd have saved before you had a context upon which to base such a decision? With most students ... even those who are eventually attracted to the DIR program ... their initial exposure to scuba comes from a perspective of total ignorance. At that point, it's easy to describe why a more extensive, and expensive, program has benefit ... but it's much more difficult to do so in a way that the average person can relate to.

Again, I would like to know how much this OW class is going to cost ... has that been determined yet?

Don't get me wrong ... I welcome the prospect. But as someone who sells scuba education, I have some questions about how they plan to make it appeal to even those divers who eventually decide that DIR-F is right for them.

So far the answers to those questions don't seem to be forthcoming ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[*Floater*]

Interesting idea. If a friend of mine knew s/he wanted to go all the way in scuba and s/he was a serious person, then I'd recommend this course. For most people though, I think learning scuba in smaller steps is best because most of them don't know how committed they will be when they start and a lot of them end up giving up diving soon after certification.

 

[Adobo]

I know that when I went looking for OW training, I went looking for the most comprehensive training I could find. But somehow, I have a feeling that I am in the minority in that regard.

So far, I've done the education part in bits and pieces. I took the OW certification (SSI) and then took 5thd-x's essentials class shortly thereafter. Between the two, there were roughly the same amount of classwork and the same amount of real dives (8) as what the GUE OW program is offering. The only thing that was short are the pool sessions (6). So far, there have been a lot of material covered and digesting it all has taken some time. I still have to go back to all of my material and review... particularly the stuff covered in my essentials class. If you consider that I haven't done nitrox and advanced open water training, I would say that perhpaps there might just be too much to be covered in such a short time. I personally admire GUE for offering this program. However, I feel that smaller chunks might be more easily digestible.

The other thing I would point out is that I believe only divers with a small critical mass of knowledge could truly appreciate what a program like this has to offer. And those divers are likely to already have OW certification. If so, they are more likely to go to DIR-F than to go back and redo OW certification.

Last point. What if you as a student show enough competency to get your OW cert card but have more work to do on the trim, bouyancy and propulsion techniques side. Do you get your GUE OW cert card and get a provisional for DIR-F? Or do you just fail? Or do you just pass?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What if you as a student show enough competency to get your OW cert card but have more work to do on the trim, bouyancy and propulsion techniques side. Do you get your GUE OW cert card and get a provisional for DIR-F? Or do you just fail? Or do you just pass?

I'd be interested in the answer to these questions as well ... do you make any distinction between "OW skills" and "DIR-F" skills, or does the student simply fail if they cannot achieve DIR-F level skills by the end of the class?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[headhunter]

Also set's keep in mind that GUE's approach to scuba instruction varies from the other agencies in one important aspect ... you aren't guaranteed to pass simply by taking the class. I'm not sure how they'd work a "provisional" OW certification, but I'd be willing to bet that "covering" DIR-F skills isn't saying that they expect these students to come out of OW with those skills perfected ... rather that they expect these students to come out of OW with adequate skills and knowledge to have identified what they will need to work on in order to become DIR-F "certified".

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I'm not sure how they would handle this, but I'd like to see them issue a provisional OW card like a learner's permit for driving.

In my mind, this would look a bit like an apprenticeship program. You would be allowed to dive with another diver who has already passed beyond the certification level you are going for.

It would also be a bit like a martial arts system where the brown belts can teach and train the white belts and green belts, but only the master can give them a brown belt of their own when they are ready.

I'd like to see us return to a system where people did not pass automatically upon completion. Again, it used to be this way. I remember people in my old classes from the 70s and 80s not being passed. Some of those people just needed to spend a little more time with the instructor and were passed after working on whatever they were deficient in. It often only took one more session and they didn't have to pay extra for it.

Christian

 

[Adobo]

I'd be interested in the answer to these questions as well ... do you make any distinction between "OW skills" and "DIR-F" skills, or does the student simply fail if they cannot achieve DIR-F level skills by the end of the class?

Because in my mind, it would take an incredibly talented person to nail down bouyancy and trim to the point of being able to do an S-drill without ascending too much - all within 8 pool sessions and 8 open water dives. Not to mention helicopters and back kicks.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'm not sure how they would handle this, but I'd like to see them issue a provisional OW card like a learner's permit for driving.

In my mind, this would look a bit like an apprenticeship program. You would be allowed to dive with another diver who has already passed beyond the certification level you are going for.

It would also be a bit like a martial arts system where the brown belts can teach and train the white belts and green belts, but only the master can give them a brown belt of their own when they are ready.

I'd like to see us return to a system where people did not pass automatically upon completion. Again, it used to be this way. I remember people in my old classes from the 70s and 80s not being passed. Some of those people just needed to spend a little more time with the instructor and were passed after working on whatever they were deficient in. It often only took one more session and they didn't have to pay extra for it.

Christian

I see two potential hurdles to this approach ...

1) Only a GUE shop would accept a "provisional" rating, which would limit the person's opportunities for diving. Now, that would be great for the shop, as it means that until one "passes" OW, they basically have a captive audience. I'm not so sure it would be good for the student, however.

2) There are a limited number of GUE instructors, and sometimes those "provisional" ratings (under the current system) can last for months before an instructor can find time in their schedule to re-evaluate you.

A solid mentoring system would have to be in place ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lamont]

Based on some of the photos that Bob Sherwood showed us in Rec Triox of his OW students, I'm guessing he's been beta-testing this kind of program for awhile. Most of what has been posted so far has been just speculation. Unless Sherwood or someone else wants to throw us a bone and comment on some of the more contentious issues about the GUE OW program, I think we're all going to have to wait and watch what happens...

 

[roakey]

Back to the original post, I don't see that as too much material IF you require the student to read the material first. My guess is that not reading it before class would be just about a sure-fire way to flunk it.

The vast majority of any PADI or SSI class appears to go over the material that in theory you already read (for the folks that won't read it before hand -- the vast majority).

When I took my PADI Nitrox class I got the book and video, read the book, did the knowledge exams and watched the video. Showed up for class, *everyone* but me had bailed on the class, the instructor asked "Read the book?" "yes" "Taken the tests at the end of the chapters?" "yes" "Watched the video?" "Yes". He asked me a few verbal questions to see how well I grasped the subject matter, fumed (at PADI, not me) and said, well, sorry I gotta do this and proceeded to put us both to sleep covering the stuff I already knew well.

The entire class was designed so you didn't have to read the book. I don't expect that least-common-denominator approach from GUE.

Roak