DIR/GUE Attitude: I just don't see it

[TSandM]

Bob, I don't think Dan was saying the only way to dive a deep cave is GUE -- I think he was saying you can pick and choose parts of the system, but if you are going to do 300 foot cave dives, you are better off having everyone on the team using the same equipment, protocols and gases. Which is something with which I agree -- the bigger the dive, the more benefit standardization offers. We can differ on that point, and I don't think it is a provable thing, but I think that's what Dan was saying.

 

[GShockey]

I think gear is something that all divers are nuts about.....How many times have you read a post from some new diver, that just bought 3 grand worth of new stuff, they want to know what everyone thinks, and then they argue for 100 more posts about why the stuff they just bought is the best. They want the "congratulations...the "you got the best stuff".... YOU made the smart call" kind of feedback.....a lot like a dog walking into the room demanding to be petted.
There is a lot of this in diving, and GUE and DIR is not immune. We have some good reasons for our ideas, but everyone still likes to feel like after all the research they did, they made the "smart" decision in the buy.


On the defensive side for this, we "test" our gear with all the DIR and GUE drilling and types of diving, much more than a typical recreational diver could ever imagine. With all this testing, many of us have actually seen some big differences in various gear performances. I think much of the gear-centric posting can really be borne out, because of this, but what you are picking up on, is the "Joy" of this gear discussion, and maybe that is what you find so irksome

---------- Post Merged at 08:10 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:58 AM ----------



It might be worthy to recall that George and JJ were really pissed about how bad all the options were back in the mid-90's, by ALL of the gear manufacturers, for bp/wing sytems. They contacted each of the big ones, individually, and even scubapro had zero interest in making what they thought would be only 100 or 200 specialty pieces that did not fit in to "their" vision of dive gear and the future..... Of all in the manufacturing dive world, only one guy stepped forward to fix this..Just one. there is no arguing this. That person was Robert Carmichael. Robert took all the specs that George and JJ were asking for, and used his R& D manufacturing facility at his Brownie Third Lung factory, to create some prototypes.....these prototypes were loved....and much better than taking a stop sign off the road, and cutting it up then putting webbing in it, and all the other nonsense that used to go on for some to create their own bp/wing systems
The Prototypes kept getting improved by Robert, as he made more and more for WKPP team members, and a huge demand for more was created. Carmichael decided to actually produce these in quantity, and he called the new system Halcyon.....
Just saying, dont forget true innovation where it occurred....For all Robert did for WKPP and Diving, with the innovation of Halcyon ( and all the copying by other mfg's today--creating even more access to this gear advantage in diving) , he gets next to no mentions EVER, and next to no thanks by anyone. Why is that ?

---------- Post Merged at 08:43 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:58 AM ----------

As what I think is an interesting tangent.....The year Halcyon actually "came out", the year Halcyon got it's "debut" at DEMA in New Orleans....there had been HUGE buzz on the internet about the brand new, not like anything else, Halcyon line. This was at a time when Scubpro and Mares and Cressi and the other big mfg's, were not just big, they were GIANTS. Each of the big guys had spaces at DEMA the size of small towns ( only slight exageration and had several dozens of employees working the floors, fancy models wearing the gear, and on and on. Each expected a flood of divers/shops through their display areas from the moment the Show began.
Robert made the show on a wing and a prayer, and a tiny budget. It was a single or double booth ( don't recall which, but tiny compared to the big guys), and there were about 5 of us to work the booth--I was one of them. Each of us wore Halcyon Black shirts, and we did have a cool and black and imposing look to our Halcyon booth.
As the show prepared to open, close to a thousand people lined up at the get go, to see the new Halcyon booth. the line coming in to us went forever, and the Scubapro and Mares guys became apoplectic, over all of these people going to us, and ignoring their huge show of the critical new colors in a BC, or the "absolutely MUST HAVE new huge pockets, etc.
At the Halcyon booth, we thought we had plenty of sales literature, but after 2 hours of the "onslaught", we were sending our artist Preston to the copy machines, and having him furiously xeroxing the brochures. Bedlam continues the entire day, and each successive day. The other manufacturers realize they have made an enormous mistake, but the bell has rung, and Halcyon has a huge head start on what everyone now knew was a "new" evolution in the kind of dive gear that would need to be made and marketed. Suddenly gear was about FUNCTION, and not about colors. "Halcyon Black" was as big a statement about the stupidity in the big mfg's, and all their "MUST HAVE THE NEW COLOR BC CR*P" as you could possibly imagine. Overnight, the consumers had changed, and the big manufacturers were SHOCKED!

Over the last decade, rampant copying, and perfection of modifications to copying, has put some great gear out there, under many different manufacturers names. Today, there really are some great choices, and Halcyon is NOT the only game in town. They still cost more then most, they still last forever ( the 18 pound wing robert Gave me back in the first year they began making them, is still in great shape, and I still use it today)....and they still are known for FUNCTION and not for fancy colors or frills or monster pockets.

** Just so you know, I did work as Marketing Dir for Halcyon the first few years from inception, but not for the last decade. In other words, I do not work for them now, but I am proud of what Robert did.

I don't write much here but Dan's comments have drawn me in... I don't often feel the need to comment as much of what gets said in these forums has been beaten nearly to death but I want to add a bit here. As Dan stated, most people don't know who Robert is but a nicer guy you will never meet. He is a visionary of the first order and after having worked with him on a few projects over the past year or so I can tell you that the experience is akin to trying to hang on to a tasmanian devil. I like to think I didn't just fall off the turnip wagon myself but working with Robert is "enlightening" to say the least... The role he has played in what most of us technical divers (and divers in general) take for granted today has been strangely skipped over. He is not a flashy guy (okay, so he drives kind of fast...) and is steadily working to improve, re-invent, invent, and think up new ideas on a regular basis. He has never been in the limelight and doesn't even seem to want to accolades actually. In any case, I too wonder why he has been strangely skipped over in much of the history, but then the squeaky wheel gets the grease I guess. I think we would be well served to remember his name because he for sure isn't done yet....

Just thought I would add this Dan.

 

[danvolker]

... and that, my friend, is the kind of statement that gets GUE divers their reputation ... and although I'm in the DIR forum and fully support the system, I'll disagree with it.

There are many ... MANY ... the majority, in fact ... people doing deep dives and cave dives who are not "full GUE" ... and who, believe it or not, are perfectly safe divers.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob....thanks for showing the problem with "context" on the Internet. I don't think you would have pulled the same reaction from what i said if we had been talking in a restaurant or other in-person place....
I was trying to address something we hear alot of...the GUE or DIR assertion that it is a "Holistic System" that must be "all or none". I explain that was NOT my original intent, but as with all "mantra's" like this one, it must have come from somewhere. So historically, there was the 100 or so man team of the WKPP, doing the biggest deep cave dives in cave diving. They took this to the absolute extreme---this holistic system, used in entirety, by all team members.
Every mantra needs to start someplace, I think this was ground zero.
Fast forward a decade or so, to a world where GUE is actively teaching to the world, instead of a 100 man team just doing mentoring among itself, and posting ideas to the internet.
GUE probably wants the nice fitting unity that the WKPP became famous for.....and I am inclined to believe that the head honchos of GUE would love to see the "cream" of each new year's GUE student crop, get harvested as new WKPP Exploration Team members. The closer these students are to the unity that WKPP made famous, the better. So while I don't know if this has anything to do with how this mantra perpetuates itself, it is probably a good thing for the Exploration Diving that GUE is involved with

As to how this translates to everyone else? My point was that this concept is there to AVOID a situation where a buddy team is not meshing well deep into a cave, or on a challenging deep shipwreck.

Are there other safe tech or cave divers, able to do safe but challenging dives? Sure.
But there is a great certainty that if you are new, and take the GUE path, you will end up with the right tools to do the huge dives.
If you are new, and respond to ads in a magazine for a tech class at a big shop (not GUE related)...you may get to be safe on the big dives, or, you might end up with an unsafe mix of ideas and gear.
Neither approach is foolproof.

I think the GUE approach is a better bet, in a place "riskier" than Las Vegas.
The mixing and matching "can" be done, but who decides this is critical. George or JJ obviously could.... Some of the people on this forum certainly could.
Some of the tech instructors that are now teaching tech, some that I have seen in the water in the last few years....... not so much

 

[GShockey]

Well I'm here now so...

I don't spend much time talking about what other organizations are not. I spend much more time talking about what GUE is and what we do, and importantly, why we can do it as easily as we do. What we do regularly, in locations as disparate as the Baltic Sea, the Solomon Islands, the caves of Florida and Mexico, the Black Sea, various locations in the Mediterranean, the PNW, etc., is conduct ongoing research, exploration, conservation and archeological activities with a minimum of fuss and bother. Many of our team members work on multiple projects at the same time in many different locations. The working teams membership can change quickly and "Joe" might be part of team "A" today, while he may be replaced by "Fred" who used to be in team "B" but now is available to team "A". I stress that this happens all the time. And rarely is there any drama or muss or fuss. And keep in mind that these dives are not always just recreational dive profiles and rarely just sight seeing. Most often they are goal or mission oriented projects that require a high level of multi tasking while working in some pretty extreme environments. Diving here is not the goal: the mission or project is. Operating in the UW environment is not the primary concern of the individuals: it is almost secondary to the project or task. We can do this sort of thing because of our standardization in terms of protocols and training, and yes, equipment. We can travel from location to location as our time and resources permit and fit into an existing project seamlessly because we are all working from the same baseline as it were. We usually don't even need to carry all our equipment with us so travelling is made much easier. This is the true benefit of standardization. And you will notice that I have not even once commented on who or what has the "better" approach to diving. Personally, I am not really interested in the debate. Our system has evolved in the nearly "evolutionary" sense of the word and if it didn't work, we quit using it. After 15 years of evolution in some of the most unforgiving UW environments, our system has proven itself, again, and again and again. We are not closed minded to new inventions, etc., but it has to contribute to this evolutionary growth mentioned above. Thus, we tend to be conservative by nature and not influenced by recent "bandwagons" or "squirrel!" ... I and most GUE instructors are not really interested in internet arguing or anything like that. Hence, you won't find us on many forums. This doesn't mean we aren't interested in the ongoing debate or unaware of it, we just don't find it entirely productive and in many cases, it seems to miss the point entirely. We are quite happy to continue our day to day adventures doing what we love in safety and in multiple locations if we are really lucky. As instructors we just help continue helping to developing team members who share our desire.

If you really want to have a question answered, or you really want to get the information from the horses mouth, contact a GUE instructor. We are all listed on the GUE website along with contact information including emails. Anyone will be happy to help if you make the effort to reach out to us. I don't understand sometimes why more people don't just do this. If you have a question about something we do, we will help: if you are misinformed or require clarification, we will help: if you require resources or anything else: we will help. It isn't fair to have Dan or Lamont or Lynne do all the heavy lifting so spread the work around. Contact anyone of us.

Best,

Guy

 

[lamont]

I do not believe, nor did I write that it is all about the gear. I noted that in my perception some were too hung up on gear. I encourage you to re-read my offending post. I was not reducing GUE to two items. I wrote that in my opinion some GUE divers are too hung up on these items.

You started out with your first post in this thread: "Your post inspired me to re-join, if only to complain." Then went on to complain about how some GUE divers are too hung up on gear, which has been a constant for as long as I've been around and there's just no solution to it. I stand entirely by what I wrote that if you can't see past that, we can't help you. Its not going to change, nobody has the magic wand to wave to avoid that. So we're back with your original statement that you popped into this forum "only to complain".

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob....thanks for showing the problem with "context" on the Internet. I don't think you would have pulled the same reaction from what i said if we had been talking in a restaurant or other in-person place....
I was trying to address something we hear alot of...the GUE or DIR assertion that it is a "Holistic System" that must be "all or none". I explain that was NOT my original intent, but as with all "mantra's" like this one, it must have come from somewhere. So historically, there was the 100 or so man team of the WKPP, doing the biggest deep cave dives in cave diving. They took this to the absolute extreme---this holistic system, used in entirety, by all team members.
Every mantra needs to start someplace, I think this was ground zero.
Fast forward a decade or so, to a world where GUE is actively teaching to the world, instead of a 100 man team just doing mentoring among itself, and posting ideas to the internet.
GUE probably wants the nice fitting unity that the WKPP became famous for.....and I am inclined to believe that the head honchos of GUE would love to see the "cream" of each new year's GUE student crop, get harvested as new WKPP Exploration Team members. The closer these students are to the unity that WKPP made famous, the better. So while I don't know if this has anything to do with how this mantra perpetuates itself, it is probably a good thing for the Exploration Diving that GUE is involved with

As to how this translates to everyone else? My point was that this concept is there to AVOID a situation where a buddy team is not meshing well deep into a cave, or on a challenging deep shipwreck.

Are there other safe tech or cave divers, able to do safe but challenging dives? Sure.
But there is a great certainty that if you are new, and take the GUE path, you will end up with the right tools to do the huge dives.
If you are new, and respond to ads in a magazine for a tech class at a big shop (not GUE related)...you may get to be safe on the big dives, or, you might end up with an unsafe mix of ideas and gear.
Neither approach is foolproof.

I think the GUE approach is a better bet, in a place "riskier" than Las Vegas.
The mixing and matching "can" be done, but who decides this is critical. George or JJ obviously could.... Some of the people on this forum certainly could.
Some of the tech instructors that are now teaching tech, some that I have seen in the water in the last few years....... not so much

Context is important, Dan ... and that's why it also matters not to frame everything in terms of what it takes to prepare for the "big dives" ... because most folks aren't really going to want to do those. A lot of the people who look at GUE ... at least initially ... aren't thinking in terms of deep wrecks or caves. They just want to become better divers. If you want to avoid misunderstandings, it helps to frame things in a way that those folks can relate to ... and to avoid hyperbole that makes it sound like you're saying this is the only "safe" way to dive.

Don't get me wrong ... I believe this system can benefit a lot of people, and actively promote it to those I think are a good fit for the approach. But that isn't everybody. And even the DIR-curious can sometimes be put off by the emphasis on extreme dives that so often get brought up in these conversations ... to those readers lacking the context of preparing for or participating in these kinds of dives it can come off as being an elitist attitude.

And that's my point. If you're going to appeal to divers at a recreational level you need to be cognizant of who your audience is, and frame your discussion accordingly. Because divers ... even among those who will actively pursue some level of cave or tech training ... will never find themselves at 300 feet inside a wreck, or a half-mile back inside a cave somewhere. So what works for those who do those kinds of dives isn't something the people you're speaking to are particularly going to relate to. What they really want to know ... within the context of their experience and goals ... is "why would I want to dive this way?"

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

You're right, Bob. If you want to make the system attractive to recreational divers, you have to show them why it benefits THEM.

An hour or so spent reading the "Near Misses" subforum will explain a lot . . . so many of the problems that people have in their diving can be prevented by good planning, good pre-dive communication, use of checklists, solid buoyancy skills, good gas management, and a commitment to diving TOGETHER. Instabuddy nightmares, people running out of gas, buddy separations . . . they're all preventable. What this system does is to give the diver the tools -- knowledge, procedure and skills -- to avoid the majority of frustrations, annoyances and scary experiences that people constantly complain about here on SB. Yes, there are certainly other ways to do it. But this one definitely works.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- it is MY personal opinion that the GUE system of diving has more to offer the recreational diver than anyone else. This is because anyone going on to technical diving or cave diving is going to get SOME kind of advanced training. All agencies include gas management in their tech/cave classes. All of them pay some attention to buoyancy control and task loading. But it is possible to get through the entire recreational curriculum without encountering any gas management information, or being introduced to the concept of trim or non-silting propulsion; it's possible to dive for years without ever developing good buddy skills or the control in the water that's required to keep people nicely together on descent and ascent. Recreational divers run into trouble; extreme exploration divers need very good planning and teamwork. At those two ends of the spectrum, the importance of a simple, standardized system that's easily implemented is the greatest, IMO.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

It seems like anytime someone wants to mention anything positive about GUE they have to write a two paragraph disclaimer statement covering everything they are about to say.

Because it never fails.....some people are already predisposed to take everything personally or the wrong way.
What these threads end up being, are a series of posts clarifying that they didn't mean this, or they didn't mean that.
Many of the members that need clarification have been around long enough to know the context and meaning of the posts.

It's quite possible that GUE isn't trying to be the way for everybody.

Why do GUE threads start taking the tone of "I want an apology"......... "I want clarification"......"I know a bunch of divers that don't do that, and they're great divers."......."was that directed at me?"....etc., etc.

Some people just seem to want the GUE apology tour to begin. Until that happens, they will never be satisfied.
I'm not only referring to this thread, many of them end up being the same way.

It's still worth reading through them, because I really enjoy Dan Volker's posts. Interesting stuff to read.

Can I get an apology...and a hug?

v/r,
Mitch

 

[Cyprian]

It seems like anytime someone wants to mention anything positive about GUE they have to write a two paragraph disclaimer statement covering everything they are about to say.

Because it never fails.....some people are already predisposed to take everything personally or the wrong way.
What these threads end up being, are a series of posts clarifying that they didn't mean this, or they didn't mean that.
Many of the members that need clarification have been around long enough to know the context and meaning of the posts.

It's quite possible that GUE isn't trying to be the way for everybody.

Why do GUE threads start taking the tone of "I want an apology"......... "I want clarification"......"I know a bunch of divers that don't do that, and they're great divers."......."was that directed at me?"....etc., etc.

Some people just seem to want the GUE apology tour to begin. Until that happens, they will never be satisfied.
I'm not only referring to this thread, many of them end up being the same way.

It's still worth reading through them, because I really enjoy Dan Volker's posts. Interesting stuff to read.

Can I get an apology...and a hug?

v/r,
Mitch

Well said, Mitch. I think you hit the proverbial nail right on the head with mention of the disclaimer. It is one of the reasons that a lot of GUE divers do not post. They simply do not want to spend time and extraneous posts defending something they said, or something that was taken out of context in their post.

Me? I'll always go back to a general idea that I swiped from Lynne, which is evident in a lot of her posts and even shows up in one of her posts in this thread.

(Pardon the paraphrase, Lynne): The GUE system is just that, a system. Is it more holistic than others? Yes. Is it the only system that works? No. Is it a safe system? Yes, very safe. Is it the only safe system? No.

Here is the big part for yours truly: Is it the system that I have chosen to dive? Yes, a resounding yes.

I'm not going to jump on SB or any other forum and "dog" others for choices that they have made, or worry about something some said a decade ago. Those who hold grudges are somewhat sad to me. I still remember my uncle's absolute dislike for Asian people because he was a WWII vet. He wouldn't step foot in a restaurant that served Asian cuisine. Here were people who were not even born during the time of WWII and he just didn't like them because something their ancestors did. That is silly. Love GI3 or hate him, he is a polarizing figure that is dead set in his ways. How he defended them really enraged some. Dan V has provided a defense for this actions. This was all done in a time and place where the fight was happening for specific reasons. I wasn't there and certainly cannot speak intelligently about the matter. But again, we are talking about something from 10-15 years ago. Move on and let's go back to the simple question:

Is GUE a safe system that works extremely well? Yes.

That's good enough for me, my teammates, and our families.

Safe dives,

Cyprian

 

[Pullmyfinger]

Same here Cyprian,


Over time, I dove with divers that were trained under different agencies. The GUE training stood out to me, based on what I saw.
I already took TDI Advanced Nitrox/ Deco Procedures, but I decided the GUE route was best for me for my future diving goals.

Like you, I find that it's good enough for me and my teammates.

It does get old having to sift through all of the hurt feeling posts.......over internet stuff that happened before most were even divers......it's pretty ridiculous.

It kind of sucks when I sometimes don't even feel like posting in the DIR sub-forum because of all of the (apologies, explanations, clarifications, disclaimers) that seem to be required.

Seriously?!?!.....wasn't that stuff happening over a decade ago?