Does anyone know what the DIR philosophy is on dive computers, particularly air integrated computers like the Suunto Cobra?
DIR & Dive Computers
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100days-a-year
Contributor
Suunto.LOL......Go to the the WKPP or GUE websites for equipment requirements.Remember of course that DIR for rec diving is not the same as Cave or Deep Wrecks.Only 2 computers support mixed gas diving Suunto doesn't make one of them.They are the VR3 and the Abyss Explorer.THe other computers are only used as expensive bottom timer/depth guages while they are in guage mode alto you can use them(dive-rite ,Suunto,Zeagle etc...)to do multiple air/nitrox mixtures.The DIR philosophy can be summed up as If you need a computer to dive the dive you shouldn't be diving it as they are 4 back-up to a good dive plan and execution of that plan.
DIR dictates a wrist mounted computer worn on the right wrist. Air integration is a no-no. Hoseless air integration is a no-no.
See http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/newgeorge.html for the "correct" gear configuration.
Rick
See http://www.wkpp.org/articles/Gear/newgeorge.html for the "correct" gear configuration.
Rick
OP
Thanks for the posts to my earlier question regarding the DIR philosophy against using computers. But why can't a computer be used? No where yet have I found a reasonable and detailed discussion on this topic by DIR divers discussing the pro's and con's of using a dive computer. In the article linked above, for example, George Irvine never mentions anything about computers.
Like a lot of people here, I'm a new diver. I just received my Open Water certification last year and have 50+ dives in. My initial training was the typical PADI course and I purchased the typical open water dive gear. Over the past year, I've read a lot about D.I.R. and am adopting much of what I read. I've found that it makes sense...for the most part. The issue with computers I don't understand.
I agree that any diver, even those using redundant computers, should plan a dive ahead of time and dive their plan, only using their computer/s for backup. But very few dives ever go exactly to plan. As much as we would like to control our dives, environmental conditions, narcosis and buddies can sometimes throw us for unexepected loops. Though a dive computer may be more complicated for than a pressure dial and a watch, it seems far less complicated and far more accurate underwater than human calculations done at depth and under light stress, especially for the far majority of divers who have less than 500 or so dives in and especially when a redundant computer is used. Since DIR directs that a pressure dial on a hose be configured on the left side why can't an air integrated computer of the same size be used in the same configuration? Instead of a watch on the right arm, why not a redundant hoseless air integrated computer?
Any help from DIR practitioners on the computer issue would be appreciated. My opinions are far from solid yet and I doubt I will ever be full-DIR or anti-DIR so please recognize I'm a silly target for any potential flaming. While I recognize the wisdom of most of the DIR stuff I've read, I'm a bit troubled by the attitude I witnessed so far by the some of the DIR crowd who treat any questions as heresy and labeling intelligent divers who chose not to agree with all aspects of the DIR philosophy as "strokes."
Like a lot of people here, I'm a new diver. I just received my Open Water certification last year and have 50+ dives in. My initial training was the typical PADI course and I purchased the typical open water dive gear. Over the past year, I've read a lot about D.I.R. and am adopting much of what I read. I've found that it makes sense...for the most part. The issue with computers I don't understand.
I agree that any diver, even those using redundant computers, should plan a dive ahead of time and dive their plan, only using their computer/s for backup. But very few dives ever go exactly to plan. As much as we would like to control our dives, environmental conditions, narcosis and buddies can sometimes throw us for unexepected loops. Though a dive computer may be more complicated for than a pressure dial and a watch, it seems far less complicated and far more accurate underwater than human calculations done at depth and under light stress, especially for the far majority of divers who have less than 500 or so dives in and especially when a redundant computer is used. Since DIR directs that a pressure dial on a hose be configured on the left side why can't an air integrated computer of the same size be used in the same configuration? Instead of a watch on the right arm, why not a redundant hoseless air integrated computer?
Any help from DIR practitioners on the computer issue would be appreciated. My opinions are far from solid yet and I doubt I will ever be full-DIR or anti-DIR so please recognize I'm a silly target for any potential flaming. While I recognize the wisdom of most of the DIR stuff I've read, I'm a bit troubled by the attitude I witnessed so far by the some of the DIR crowd who treat any questions as heresy and labeling intelligent divers who chose not to agree with all aspects of the DIR philosophy as "strokes."
"I'm a bit troubled by the attitude I witnessed so far by the(sic) some of the DIR crowd who treat any questions as heresy and labeling intelligent divers who chose not to agree with all aspects of the DIR philosophy as 'strokes.'"
Ahhhhh... you begin to see the truth, young grasshopper...
If you want to claim "DIR" as your diving method, you must comply completely.
As George says in his summation, "To quote Bill Gavin regarding gear, a diver must 'settle for nothing less than perfection. Those who do will discover on their own the value of such effort. Those who do not will never understand what the others are talking about'(sic). What we have presented here is called the 'Doing It Right' system, and is a platform that is integrated completely and
accommodates all contingencies and additions, but no phobias."
There just isn't much wiggle room in that, is there?
Rick
Ahhhhh... you begin to see the truth, young grasshopper...
If you want to claim "DIR" as your diving method, you must comply completely.
As George says in his summation, "To quote Bill Gavin regarding gear, a diver must 'settle for nothing less than perfection. Those who do will discover on their own the value of such effort. Those who do not will never understand what the others are talking about'(sic). What we have presented here is called the 'Doing It Right' system, and is a platform that is integrated completely and
accommodates all contingencies and additions, but no phobias."
There just isn't much wiggle room in that, is there?
Rick
rcohn
Guest
DIR diving is concerned with serious (extreme) technical diving using multiple mixes (trimix and nitrox) and long decompressions. George has frequently said he has no interest in "weenie diving" i.e. recreational or overly conservative (in his opinion) tech diving. Existing computers have little application in this extreme form of diving, bottom timers and tables are used. They tailor the tables to the level of safety they choose rather than relying on what the computer manufacturer dictates.
Most of your other questions are covered by their desire for minimalism and eliminating all nonessential failure points.
If you want to blindly follow someone who has no interest in the type of diving you do, good luck and have fun.
Ralph
Most of your other questions are covered by their desire for minimalism and eliminating all nonessential failure points.
If you want to blindly follow someone who has no interest in the type of diving you do, good luck and have fun.
Ralph
Aardal
Contributor
:idea:
Man O Man did you guys stir up a hornets nest!
Aaron
Man O Man did you guys stir up a hornets nest!
Aaron
OP
Ralph,
I agree with part of your post: I certainly don't want to blindly follow any diver no matter how well known they are. Every diver, from her/his first class forward should politely question any information they're given that doesn't seem right. And they should have a right to expect a polite answer.
However, DIR today isn't just being applied to extreme technical diving as you indicated. If it were, I wouldn't have any interest in it. For example see the following links at Halcyon and GUE:
http://www.halcyon.net/dir/faq_05.shtml
http://www.gue.com/equipment/equip-considerations.shtml
My question for DIR divers is that in "eliminating all nonessential failure points" why is it accepted that a computer is a greater potential point of failure than human judgement and calculations underwater in the event of an unplanned situation. Even on simple calculations, I've learned that if a human and a $3 calculator disagree on a calculation, the machine will be right 99.99% percent of the time.
I agree with part of your post: I certainly don't want to blindly follow any diver no matter how well known they are. Every diver, from her/his first class forward should politely question any information they're given that doesn't seem right. And they should have a right to expect a polite answer.
However, DIR today isn't just being applied to extreme technical diving as you indicated. If it were, I wouldn't have any interest in it. For example see the following links at Halcyon and GUE:
http://www.halcyon.net/dir/faq_05.shtml
http://www.gue.com/equipment/equip-considerations.shtml
My question for DIR divers is that in "eliminating all nonessential failure points" why is it accepted that a computer is a greater potential point of failure than human judgement and calculations underwater in the event of an unplanned situation. Even on simple calculations, I've learned that if a human and a $3 calculator disagree on a calculation, the machine will be right 99.99% percent of the time.
greg somers
Guest
No worries in asking the question.The problem with any different dive speciality is that often it is taught that equipment can replace experience.Those of us who have dived for a while (myself for 17yrs) have seen alot of changes over the years and not all of them are good.My issue with computers is that they are not always accurate enough.No model is the same and some are less conservative than others.Also your body and the cycles and body tolerances that are peculiar to you will not be the same as mine.No computer can deal with this.When a manufacturer produces a model,they make it to be sold in the general population of divers,but there are many who fall ouside of those profiles used to set the tolerances of the computer.If my absorbsion
of nitrogen is different than yours than how can a computer compensate for that? It can't.Now I believe that computers are a great tool but they are not the whole toolbox.
A well planned dive plan that has been checked and rechecked by a buddy cannot be replaced on technical dives,be they simple or extreme.A good technical diver should have contingencies planned for to cope with depth and time changes and be able to implement them in time of need.
I guess that I have seen too many divers being lazy in their planning and going beyond their plan parameters and just hoping that it will be ok.
DIR is more than just the gear but it is also the mindset and practices.
I agree with the need for the best gear.It's your life after all but the whole pie is better than a piece of it.
Stay smart,stay safe and stay in the water.
of nitrogen is different than yours than how can a computer compensate for that? It can't.Now I believe that computers are a great tool but they are not the whole toolbox.
A well planned dive plan that has been checked and rechecked by a buddy cannot be replaced on technical dives,be they simple or extreme.A good technical diver should have contingencies planned for to cope with depth and time changes and be able to implement them in time of need.
I guess that I have seen too many divers being lazy in their planning and going beyond their plan parameters and just hoping that it will be ok.
DIR is more than just the gear but it is also the mindset and practices.
I agree with the need for the best gear.It's your life after all but the whole pie is better than a piece of it.
Stay smart,stay safe and stay in the water.
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