DIR Answer Required

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

TSandM:
I don't think you can't use the 120 rule; I just think if you are pushing the limits on it, you are probably a lot safer viewing your dive as a mandatory decompression dive, and managing your ascent accordingly.
Every dive is a deco dive.

It's not pushing the limits much at all if you keep your ascent rate nice and slow and do the rest of what Pug said - as much time as you spent below 3ata should be spent above 2ata at an ever slower ascent rate... Back to that deco curve thing mentioned earlier :wink:

It would be impossible for me to teach you to do this via the internet. This is only a brief outline of what I do and does not include all the pieces. It would also be unwise for you to try it without understanding it just because you read about it here.
 
catherine96821:
no kidding it is pretty cool. AND I can do the math at depth! They have been holding out on us folks. It took me how many years to stumble on this gem?

The 120 rule isn't a DIR thing. It's been around a lot longer than DIR.

Also, the GUE table changes things up a bit when you get to 60'. Here are the Minimum Decompression Tables for Air taught in my GUE classes.

130' - 5 min
120' - 10 min
110' - 15 min
100' - 20 min
90' - 25 min
80' - 30 min
70' - 35 min

60' - 50 min
50' - 60 min
40' - 170 min

One of the things that doesn't seem to have been discussed is why we choose the gasses we breath, and why we set the limits for those gasses. This comes into play with the question about Cold, and relates to the prevention of Narcosis, DCS, and CNS Toxicity.

The first rule is to limit your level of Narcosis to an Equivalent Narcotic Depth of 100'. By adding Helium to the gas mix, we can lower the END to within acceptable limits. For the math geeks out there, here are two equations to help with the process.

END = (1 - FHe) * ATA
MND = 4.0 / (1 - FHe)

FHe = Fraction of Helium, or the percentage of He in the gas
MND = Max Narcotic Depth (i.e. 100' = 4 ATA, or keep it below 100')

Second, we reduce the ppO2 of the gas we breath to stay within these limits.

ppO2

Working
1.4 Max
1.2 Average

Resting / Deco
1.6 Max
1.4 Average

In a basic Nitrox course, you learn that a ppO2 of 1.6 is max, and a ppO2 of 1.4 is recommended. These are basic limits that have changed over the years, and are designed to create a buffer between safe diving and Oxygen Toxicity. The reason behind this is that exertion, stress, cold, and a few other things increase your susceptibility to CNS toxicity. Thus giving yourself a bit more room on the ppO2 of the gas you're breathing will make the dive more conservative.

Here are the equations for the Oxygen calcs.

MOD = ppO2 / FO2
EAD = (1 - FO2) * ATA / .79

Some numbers on a few gas mixes.

21/35
MND = 170' END @ 160' = 90'
MOD = 1.4 @ 190' 1.2 @ 160'

25/25 - Not a GUE gas standard, but it fits their limits
MND = 144' END @ 130' = 90'
MOD = 1.4 @ 153' 1.2 @ 130'
EAD = 121' ~ 10' or 10%

30/30
MND = 157' END @ 100' = 60'
MOD = 1.4 @ 122' 1.2 @ 100'
EAD = 100' ~ 20' or 20%

Feel free to run the numbers on the other gas standards. The numbers will show what depths each of the gasses work at within the limits above. They will also show how flexible the gasses are in the event the dive plan changes.

18/45
15/55
10/70

That's it. That's all the hubub. The limits were set to keep things conservative in the event something goes wrong. If you're in a cave (wreck, deep dive, recreational dive, cold dive, etc) and something bad happens, your stress levels go up, and your breathing increases. That can change how the gasses we're breathing impact us, and setting limits for the gasses we breath a head of time while sticking to a plan, will make things safer for us in the unlikely event something bad happens.

Like everything, you decide whether these limits work for you or not.

I'll leave you with this, is it easier to come up with a standard gas that works with a standard decompression profile for specific depths, or would you prefer running the complicated math every time you get ready for a dive? Also, is the standard any different from running the numbers every time?

Food for thought.

~ Jason
 
Those quotes do not jibe with what Workman said (or should I say my memory of what he said<G>) at the Tek conference back in the early 1990s. I'm going to have to pin down the truth now.
 
onfloat:
Air is less than optimal for anything but a shallow reef dive, preferred is Nitrox 32. Air definitely not below 100 ft. When I did the Sea Tiger my max depth was 106 ft. I just didn't go over the edge to the floor. So it's possible to do with out going to 127. (That max depth thing for the plan.)

For depths to 130 that's why we start looking at recreational triox, to start limiting the equivalent narcotic depth.
So what GUE standard gas would you use for the Sea Tiger if you did intend to go over to the floor at 127'?

Isn't it a bit deep for 30/30? Does recreational triox cover deco planning for other standard GUE gases suitable for the Sea Tiger at 127', or are you supposed to get additional training beyond Rec Triox before doing such a dive?
 
Charlie99:
So what GUE standard gas would you use for the Sea Tiger?

Isn't it a bit deep for 30/30? Does recreational triox cover deco info for other standard GUE gases suitable for the Sea Tiger at 127', or are you supposed to get additional training beyond Rec Triox before doing such a dive?
IIRC...Onfloat was taking classes with the heretics and was diving 25/25 (which is not a Gue standard gas).
 
Charlie99:
So what GUE standard gas would you use for the Sea Tiger?

Isn't it a bit deep for 30/30? Does recreational triox cover deco info for other standard GUE gases suitable for the Sea Tiger at 127', or are you supposed to get additional training beyond Rec Triox before doing such a dive?

As a recreational dive, I would plan 25/25 for the gas, and plan to keep my average depth a bit shallower to increase bottom time without exceeding MDL. This isn't a GUE standard gas, but it's within their standards for gas mixes.

As a Tech dive, I'd do 25/25 for 35 minutes of BT at an average depth of 120', and do 20 minutes of deco on a 50% bottle.

I'm not sure why you thought onfloat made the statements I did, and for the record, I dive with the heretics (i.e. AG with NAUI) now. I did DIR-F and RecTriox with GUE, and the numbers in my original post are from those classes.

~ Jason
 
darkpup, maybe food for thought for the next few decades. In the meantime, its printed and put aside for leisurely perusal on a 12 hour flight. Thank-you.
 
catherine96821:
darkpup, maybe food for thought for the next few decades. In the meantime, its printed and put aside for leisurely perusal on a 12 hour flight. Thank-you.

Hehehe, now that's funny.

Why do you think others keep recommending you take a class if you're interested in learning DIR?

It's easy to take pieces like standard gas mixes, MDL tables, and what not out of context, and explain them one at a time in detail. It's difficult to put everything together in one package without education, training, practice, and experience.

~ Jason
 
darkpup:
I'm not sure why you thought onfloat made the statements I did, .....
Ummmmm. It's nice to see that you and Onfloat have achieved mind-merge, but post #99, written by Onfloat is the one that I clicked "Reply" to. Or maybe it's me that is confused as to who is who because all you DIR guys look alike. Maybe if you wore something other than black I could tell you apart. :)

It does look like 25/25 makes the most sense where EAN32 END is too high, but the dive is still in the "recreational" depth range.
 
Charlie99:
Ummmmm. It's nice to see that you and Onfloat have achieved mind-merge, but post #99, written by Onfloat is the one that I clicked "Reply" to. Or maybe it's me that is confused as to who is who because all you DIR guys look alike. Maybe if you wore something other than black I could tell you apart. :)

It does look like 25/25 make the most sense in most cases where helium is needed in the "recreational" depth range.

Come on, I have blue gloves, doesn't that count? :wink:

Looks like I was confused on my earlier post. Sorry.

~ Jason
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

Back
Top Bottom