DIR and Pony tanks?

[Ben_ca]

edit: see above

 

[Soggy]

The base question is why is the pony forbidden but a H/Y acceptable? If the requirements for the dive get large enough then the proper pony looks like your primary. So how about non-manifolded doubles (twin singles)? The manifold would be better but I don't got one yet.
Thanks for your time,
CJ

Look, if you *want* to use a pony, go right at it. There are several problems with the concept of a pony bottle. First, where do you put it? Do you put it on your back, strapped to a single tank? No, that doesn't really work because you probably can't reach the valve quickly in an emergency, plus it creates an unnecessary line trap (entanglement point). Do you sling it stage style? Well, no, that doesn't really work either since, moving forward, those would normally be deco or stage bottles where a very deliberate gas switching procedure is required before switching to a different bottles, so the whole concept of rapidly switching to it in an emergency builds a poor foundation of skill. What do you do with the pony regulator? Do you stow it, do you clip it off somewhere? How do you keep it clean? If it is behind you, how do you know it hasn't come unstowed and is dangling around you. How do you know what the current pressure in the bottle is? Do you clip another SPG off? Where to? There is no right-side hip d-ring. What gas do you keep in it? The list goes on and on and on.

...and the best reason of all...there is no need for it. YOUR BUDDY HAS ALL THE GAS YOU NEED. If you feel the need for redundancy, you need manifolded DOUBLES.

There are a whole host of problems and reasons why a pony doesn't fit into the DIR framework. Remember...DIR is a wholistic and systematic approach to diving. You can't add or remove something from the system without it causing a ripple effect.

Twin singles are not even remotely DIR because of the additional gas management required, extra gauges, and primarily the fact that, almost *every* failure results in loss of access to half your gas....not a really great feeling when you are back a couple thousand feet in a cave or deep inside a wreck. The only failures with manifolded doubles that limit access to both tanks is a failure requiring isolation (which means a blown o-ring or burst disk). Can you reach both valves? Ordinarily, on a twin singles, the left post valve is facing in and is very difficult to reach. The list goes on and on....

Twin singles are really a cluster waiting to happen.

 

[boomx5]

I'm trying to figure out your motivation here CJ. If you are interested in GUE training, them it would be best to take a GUE class...that way you'll get the answers you seek instead of trying to learn this stuff off of the internet. I am more than happy to refer a GUE instructor to you if you have any more questions, which will save you time and give you the good solid answers that you seek.

 

[JeffG]

Twin singles are really a cluster waiting to happen.

Really...You mean something like this guy I saw on Friday. Jacket BC...2 tanks (1 steel the other Alum), jury rigged as independent doubles. Aga full face mask on one tank.




Back to the main CJ - 62's question....

Try this

What problem are you trying to Solve with this piece of Equipment?
What problems does this piece of Equipment create by using it?

Can another piece of equipment solve the problem? (and it would then have to go through all the same questions)

Can training/procedures be used to solve the problem?

(None of the above is unique to DIR, everyone should ask those questions of new equipment)

The only DIR Questions would be.
What effect does this Equipment have to the DIR "Rig" layout?
(Will it get in the way of stages, a scooter the light...etc etc)
What effect does this Equipment have to DIR procedures?
(Will this get in the way of the long hose deployment...stage deployment...etc etc)

so CJ-62, apply that to your pony bottle (or your knife). What answer does it give you?

 

[Arduous]

If you have a broadband connection, you can download the DIR-III video from here. ( If the link still works)

http://jan.dir-slovenia.com/

 

[CJ-62]

If you have a broadband connection, you can download the DIR-III video from here. ( If the link still works)

http://jan.dir-slovenia.com/

Link still works,
Thanks you,
CJ

 

[ghrousseau]

I don't plan to need a knife but I bring one along anyway. Along with a SMB, backup light, whistle on all dives and other stuff on night dives.

The base question is why is the pony forbidden but a H/Y acceptable? If the requirements for the dive get large enough then the proper pony looks like your primary. So how about non-manifolded doubles (twin singles)? The manifold would be better but I don't got one yet.
Thanks for your time,
CJ

If you search this forum you will find that all of these questions have been previously addressed at length. Pony bottles are used by other divers in various configurations, however they are not DIR. Deco/stage bottles are slung on the left side. Independent twins are not DIR and this has also been discussed in numerous threads.

 

[HarryH97]

Link still works,
Thanks you,
CJ

CJ,
Lots of comments already on the challenges introduced with pony or independents. The solution was presented in an already closed thread on carrying more BG in the appropriate configuration and planning appropriately (my gas is your gas, is our gas...). Your team HAS more than enough gas for the team. The team also comes before the I in DIR. I cannot say I can feel your frustration when people point to 'take the class,' but I can feel my frustration along with others that have already taken the class on the basic rationale of why we do what we do. If you want to argue it, you need to have a more complete basis of how everything fits together. You are not the first to be offended with 'take the class' nor the last. The problem lies in trying to internet learn bits and pieces without putting all of it together. This may be creating more of problem than you're trying to solve, especially if you don't have a good grasp of other considerations. It's not just some simple math formula rattled off. Onfloat pointed you toward getting it straight from the instructors and also about having too much knowledge ahead of your skill level as a dangerous thing. We call this the loaded gun. Although you are taught how to use the loaded gun, if you don't have the skills (and the instructors will be very clear about you having or not having the skills), the loaded gun can kill you. This is particularly true with the gases we breathe for deco. If you want to dive ponies or independent twins, go ahead. If you want to dive the outdated 120 rule, and deco on air with US Navy tables, go ahead. If you think you know what gases to bring and when to stop and how long based on a computer algorithm, hey I'm not stopping you. I wish you well and hope you don't hurt yourself. These are just not the methods we use to maximize our advantage in the water and mitigate risk and accidents. The why is not one thing but rather the synergistic tools that all the team members bring before we enter into the water.

However, if you're serious about taking your diving to the next level and are really committed to it, come up to Seattle for some instruction. You can contact Mark Tourtellot out of www.fifthd.com. There's a healthy group of DIR divers from recreational thru Tech 3 doing simple shallow dives right thru 300+' wreck dives with support teams. I know of at least another technical diver and she lives down in Portland, OR and travels up here on the weekends to dive DIR. After all, if you go down this route, you'll want to dive with other divers that have this training and are properly configured. DIR is not a solo adventure. You'll also be surprised to see those that take DIR-F range from OW thru Rescue thru DiveMaster thru OW Master Instructor to full Trimix technical diver instructor. Everyone starts from ground zero regardless of your experiences. Those that have passed have demonstrated the requisite proficiency at that level. And you can bet that I am counting on them to have to wherewithall to save my life, not just look at my unconscious body or don't have the desire to give me 'their gas.'

Sincerely,
Harry

 

[CJ-62]

CJ,
Lots of comments already on the challenges introduced with pony or independents. The solution was presented in an already closed thread on carrying more BG in the appropriate configuration and planning appropriately (my gas is your gas, is our gas...). Your team HAS more than enough gas for the team. The team also comes before the I in DIR. I cannot say I can feel your frustration when people point to 'take the class,' but I can feel my frustration along with others that have already taken the class on the basic rationale of why we do what we do. If you want to argue it, you need to have a more complete basis of how everything fits together. You are not the first to be offended with 'take the class' nor the last. The problem lies in trying to internet learn bits and pieces without putting all of it together. This may be creating more of problem than you're trying to solve, especially if you don't have a good grasp of other considerations. It's not just some simple math formula rattled off. Onfloat pointed you toward getting it straight from the instructors and also about having too much knowledge ahead of your skill level as a dangerous thing. We call this the loaded gun. Although you are taught how to use the loaded gun, if you don't have the skills (and the instructors will be very clear about you having or not having the skills), the loaded gun can kill you. This is particularly true with the gases we breathe for deco. If you want to dive ponies or independent twins, go ahead. If you want to dive the outdated 120 rule, and deco on air with US Navy tables, go ahead. If you think you know what gases to bring and when to stop and how long based on a computer algorithm, hey I'm not stopping you. I wish you well and hope you don't hurt yourself. These are just not the methods we use to maximize our advantage in the water and mitigate risk and accidents. The why is not one thing but rather the synergistic tools that all the team members bring before we enter into the water.

However, if you're serious about taking your diving to the next level and are really committed to it, come up to Seattle for some instruction. You can contact Mark Tourtellot out of www.fifthd.com. There's a healthy group of DIR divers from recreational thru Tech 3 doing simple shallow dives right thru 300+' wreck dives with support teams. I know of at least another technical diver and she lives down in Portland, OR and travels up here on the weekends to dive DIR. After all, if you go down this route, you'll want to dive with other divers that have this training and are properly configured. DIR is not a solo adventure. You'll also be surprised to see those that take DIR-F range from OW thru Rescue thru DiveMaster thru OW Master Instructor to full Trimix technical diver instructor. Everyone starts from ground zero regardless of your experiences. Those that have passed have demonstrated the requisite proficiency at that level. And you can bet that I am counting on them to have to wherewithall to save my life, not just look at my unconscious body or don't have the desire to give me 'their gas.'

Sincerely,
Harry

Well I feel pretty beat up lately, on two threads I asked questions about the reasonong behind a couple of DIR policies. I thought that this forum was specific for the discussion of DIR philosophy and technique. I did not receive answers readily, did get a couple of good links and a lot of "thats been settled take the class". Why does this forum exist outside of the GUE website if nothing can be discussed?
Why did anybody that didn't want to talk about my questions respond at all. If the subject has been settled for you in a previous thread then please link the thread and say "please reference...". Why so much hatred, the patroninzing tones, the assumption of incompetance, the arrogance?
One thread was about computers, bottoom line there was they are just a tool and can be properly used within the framework of DIR in gauge mode. Totally unnecessary but no big deal to a mature diver. If you possess self-discipline it is a non-issue.
This thread was about pony bottles. I understand the position, it is clearly stated, I just didn't see the logic. BTW it is based on false assumptions, only one responder asked (and then answered for me) the purpose for the tank. The DIR III video demonstrated proper position as clipped on the left chest/hip (by Mr GI himself). The issue is you cannot call it a "PONY", my bad but a 40 has always been a pony to me.
There has been an underlying assumption that to question the stated position somehow denotes a lack of intellectual depth or experience. I don't remember slamming the DIR way just asking questions. Questioning an established position is the path for growth, for the questioner in the least.
Does anyone reading this think that the only way to learn something is through a sponsored/formal class. It has been said that I can only appreciate the holistic aspect if I take the class, hogwash. While deco planning was not the issue of this thread, it did came up and there is a biophysical theory behind it and you don't need to learn to meditate to utilize it. .
Along with the abuse (no thanks), information was provided (thanks). To everyone that said "You can do what you want", thanks but I would have anyway. To those that provided insight, my warmest regards.
This evolution has been quite enlightening.
Signing off,
CJ

 

[JeffG]

Does anyone reading this think that the only way to learn something is through a sponsored/formal class.

I think learning how to dive on the internet is cool. Everyone should do it. I think TDI and the others should put all their manuals online and downloadable to all of us. It shouldn't matter if something is taken out of context and they hurt themselves...right?

It has been said that I can only appreciate the holistic aspect if I take the class, hogwash. While deco planning was not the issue of this thread, it did came up and there is a biophysical theory behind it and you don't need to learn to meditate to utilize it. .
Along with the abuse (no thanks), information was provided (thanks). To everyone that said "You can do what you want", thanks but I would have anyway. To those that provided insight, my warmest regards.
This evolution has been quite enlightening.
Signing off,
CJ

You want something for free...but you are not willing to pay the price...No problem, go sign off and evolve.