JeffG
Contributor
Compressed neoprene are shell suits....its the non-compressed neoprene suits that are bad.NWGratefulDiver:
DIR and Drysuits
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vlada
Contributor
JeffG:
Exactly. So CF200 and other non-compressible neoprene suits are just fine - there are quite a few of us in teh Great lakes area that have gone through Fundies and Tech 1 in CF200 and similar suits
VLada
MHK
Guest
Hey guys just a quick comment here..
One of the reasons I specifically avoid telling my students about specific reliance on brand names is because the concept gets lost in the equation, and then if the brand name changes, or the product changes they are left without adequate information.
The concept that is important in the instant case isn't a "CF-200" per se, it's that ANY suit that has varying buoyancy characteristics should be avoided. More often then not divers tend to believe that the suit itself is what keeps a diver warm, so they opt for ideas like a CF-200. Whereas the educated diver knows that the undergarment is what keeps the diver warm, argon notwithstanding. As such, the educated diver opts for an undergarment that will be sufficient for the environment and then opts for a shell suit. The benefit is, of course, that the buoyancy characteristics of a shell suit is the same at 10' as it is at 300'. Neoprene, and to a lesser extent, crushed neoprene suits will require added weight for your 10' stop but upon compression at depth will require less weight. That in turn means that a diver will be at depth will more weight then need be. Particularly if you are doing deeper diving, with multiple tank(s), stage or deco bottles, strong currents etc. etc. the added weight caused by the neoprene can lead to unecessary work, which can add to C02 accumulation, added narcosis and so on..
That is why we recommend the shell suit -v- the neoprene or crushed neoprene.
Hope that helps..
Regards,
Michael H. Kane
One of the reasons I specifically avoid telling my students about specific reliance on brand names is because the concept gets lost in the equation, and then if the brand name changes, or the product changes they are left without adequate information.
The concept that is important in the instant case isn't a "CF-200" per se, it's that ANY suit that has varying buoyancy characteristics should be avoided. More often then not divers tend to believe that the suit itself is what keeps a diver warm, so they opt for ideas like a CF-200. Whereas the educated diver knows that the undergarment is what keeps the diver warm, argon notwithstanding. As such, the educated diver opts for an undergarment that will be sufficient for the environment and then opts for a shell suit. The benefit is, of course, that the buoyancy characteristics of a shell suit is the same at 10' as it is at 300'. Neoprene, and to a lesser extent, crushed neoprene suits will require added weight for your 10' stop but upon compression at depth will require less weight. That in turn means that a diver will be at depth will more weight then need be. Particularly if you are doing deeper diving, with multiple tank(s), stage or deco bottles, strong currents etc. etc. the added weight caused by the neoprene can lead to unecessary work, which can add to C02 accumulation, added narcosis and so on..
That is why we recommend the shell suit -v- the neoprene or crushed neoprene.
Hope that helps..
Regards,
Michael H. Kane
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That's about what I figured Michael ... but as with all things there are trade-offs.
I prefer diving in a shell suit, for a number of reasons. The only problem is getting one that fits properly. Even when buying a custom suit, as I did, getting a proper fit seems to be a crap shoot. And with shell suits, since there's no "stretch" to the fabric, there's little or no room for error.
I see way too many people (some of them DIR divers who ordered custom) in shell suits with that "Canadian Mountie" look about the upper legs ... or with baggy folds that make them look like a kid wearing their parent's clothing. All that extra fabric can't be good for buoyancy control.
Or worse ... as is the case with my brand-new custom suit ... with the upper body cut in such a way that it restricts proper arm motion. This doesn't seem to be restricted to any particular brand ... I've seen these problems with virtually all of the major manufacturers.
One of my motivations for finally wanting to take the DIR-F class is to see if, in fact, they can tell me something I haven't already been told with respect to avoiding these kinds of problems. If so, then that alone will be worth the cost of the course.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I prefer diving in a shell suit, for a number of reasons. The only problem is getting one that fits properly. Even when buying a custom suit, as I did, getting a proper fit seems to be a crap shoot. And with shell suits, since there's no "stretch" to the fabric, there's little or no room for error.
I see way too many people (some of them DIR divers who ordered custom) in shell suits with that "Canadian Mountie" look about the upper legs ... or with baggy folds that make them look like a kid wearing their parent's clothing. All that extra fabric can't be good for buoyancy control.
Or worse ... as is the case with my brand-new custom suit ... with the upper body cut in such a way that it restricts proper arm motion. This doesn't seem to be restricted to any particular brand ... I've seen these problems with virtually all of the major manufacturers.
One of my motivations for finally wanting to take the DIR-F class is to see if, in fact, they can tell me something I haven't already been told with respect to avoiding these kinds of problems. If so, then that alone will be worth the cost of the course.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
divenut2001:
The DUI cave cut is only available on built to order suits.
Basically the suit will come with smaller circumferences while the lengths will be the same as a DUI non-cave cut suit.
A properly fitted cave cut suit should fit snug to the body but not restrict motion. In particular it should not restrict your ability to manipulate your valves.
DUI requires a signed waiver prior to building a cave cut suit.
Marc Hall
www.enjoythedive.com
MHK
Guest
NWGratefulDiver:
Bob,
One of my concerns about the DUI suit, whether cut "cave" style or not, is that they have this telescoping torso. That, in and of itself, makes for a poor fitting suit and more often then not leads to the problem you highlight respecting the "Canadian Mountie legs". It's almost as if the cut is next to impossible to get accurate because you have competing interests working against you.
The telescoping torso helps a diver get in and out of his suit more easily. However, the trade-off is that it makes for extra material that needs to be folded over. That causes drag on the one hand, but it also makes fitting a suit next to impossible. The Diving Concepts and/or Andys designed by 5th D attempted to correct this issue by moving the zipper placement and extended it in a different angle. That allowed the diver to get in and out of the suit more easily while simultaneously eliminating the necessity for the telescoping torso.
All of the above being said, fit is still key and requires that the person fitting you knows what he is doing. That is the real reason to take the DIR-F class ;-).. Seriously, the "cave cut" happened over a period of time, more by accident then by design. Dave Sweetin and Charlie were working at EE, one of the top DUI dealers in the country, and over a period of time they noticed that almost every DUI suit they fit came back cut incorrectly consistently in the same places. So over time they, in essence, backed into the correct fit by sending in inaccurate measurements in the areas they knew would be cut wrong. Over time, they got the suits back the way they wanted them to be fit, and that is what is know known as the "cave cut".. The point, of course, being is that garbage in garbage out. If the suit is measured incorrectly, and given DUI's notorious poor tailoring, there's a good chance you'll wind up with a bad fit..
Hope that helps..
nyresq
Contributor
Mike, my cf-200 is actually negative in water (experimented myself) and I have never noticed any compression at depth, except for the neoprene wrist seals... I can speak for the "hypercompressed" type suits, but I think the "crushed" suit is made specificaly Not to compress under pressure.
MHK,
Doesn't your underwear inside the suit change the bouancy as depth changes?
Doesn't your underwear inside the suit change the bouancy as depth changes?
JeffG
Contributor
Nope...Not as long as you add enough air to have the underwear keep its "loft"....and if you don't add the air...you will have other issuesTegg:
rjchandler
Contributor
MarcHall:
Why is this? If you know
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