Differences Between UTD and GUE

[rjack321]

I'll be honest, I think the way AG does O2-only deco (half deco time on back gas coming into the O2 switch) is wonky. I don't know what it's based on, since no other deco algorithms generate such profiles. It certainly isn't motivated in the UTD RD slides. In most cases, it just keeps you in the water longer (roughly same O2 time), so not a huge deal, but it does seem unmotivated. At least UTD *has* an algorithm for O2 dives (a huge GUE weakness, IMO). For these shallow (<120') dives, most GUE people I know are simply doing time over NDL, half credit for O2 + extra five min up on the O2 (the back gas deco up to 20' is done differently by different teams; so much for uniformity...).

The 1/2 time below O2 is created (to some extent) by the extension of the deep stops in concept which jumps in time at 50% of depth. Its getting deco done earlier as well. So far it seems to work for me if I do all the shallow time on O2 before ascending, it may not work for BoulderJ's buddy though.

BoulderJ I can't figure out what you actually did profilewise. Could you download your profile and post it for us?

Richard

 

[Selachimorpha]

I've got to run, so this is the last message for a while. I was very sure of the average--at least that is what my Uwatec bottom timer gave me.

When you guys take your average depth, are you including the descent portion of the dive? As far as I am aware the Uwatec bottom timers can't be reset once you hit depth, unlike say a UWATEC TEC 2 G in gauge mode, where the average depth can be reset. I am not a DIR diver, but I have been reading up on RD over the last few days, purely out of interest and to further my understanding of various decompression models.

Once thing I came across during my reading was this issue of including the descent in the average depth, which is something that happens with the Uwatec bottom times. Depending on the speed of your descent, this can result in a significantly shallower average depth than you would get if you reset the average depth after your descent was complete.

Hope this helps!

By the way, what do GUE/UTD teach in terms of diving at altitude?

 

[Scott L]

A noticable differnce in agencies is the location of instructors. I know UTD is still very new but looking at instructor locations there is a better chace of the next one being domiciled in Belgrade Serbia before the eastcoast USA. Just saying...

 

[boulderjohn]

Ascent profile from memory (I am in Cozumel at the moment and don't have my wet notes):

Planned

Ascent to 90
90 (1)
80 (1)
70 (1)
60 (2)
50 (3)
40 (4)
30 (6)
20 (15)
Ascent (3-5)

Actual (changed due to 3 minutes extra BT)

Ascent to 90
90 (1)
80 (1)
70 (1)
60 (2)
50 (3)
40 (5)
30 (7)
20 (17)
Ascent (3-5)

 

[Jeff_S]

A noticable differnce in agencies is the location of instructors. I know UTD is still very new but looking at instructor locations there is a better chace of the next one being domiciled in Belgrade Serbia before the eastcoast USA. Just saying...

This makes an interesting point. Right now we have 25 instructors, 11 of whom are in the U.S. and Canada. We've done that in the past year, with one instructor trainer. I spend a big part of every week interviewing and speaking with instructor candidates from all over the world, and Andrew is working tirelessly teaching IDC's.

It's a relatively long process to cross over or start from scratch. The IDC consists of four modules (registration, class prep, academic, and foundational) which gets you through the recreational classes and specialties, then there are additional modules for Tech, Trimix, Overhead, etc. And although we've kept the cost reasonable, there is still a financial commitment to go through the program.

There are no paper crossovers, no gimme's, everyone does the complete program. Which means this training is not for everyone, and finding those unique people - divers who want to become the best instructors they can, who can take the time and spend the money, is a methodical process.

We don't advertise for instructors, it's all word of mouth (or word of internet). This year, most of those people have been showing up in Europe. But just over the past four or five weeks, I've started having more conversations with domestic instructors. We're now making plans for an IDC in the pacific northwest and one in the mid-west. As we accept candidates into the program from the east coast, we'll add an IDC there, also.

It's an organic process to grown an instructor corps. UTD is not for everyone, and we spend a lot of time with each person who calls making sure expectations on both side can be met. So we will continue to add instructors at a pace we can manage while holding the line on finding the best people we can, regardless of where they live.

If you are interested, feel free to contact me. jeff@unifiedteamdiving.com. I'm happy to schedule a call with anyone.

And we have a group on the website for instructors from all agencies:
UTD Groups - All Agency Instructors
If you're currently teaching through any agency, please join the group...the discussions have been really interesting.

Best,

Jeff

 

[Scott L]

This makes an interesting point. Right now we have 25 instructors, 11 of whom are in the U.S. and Canada. We've done that in the past year, with one instructor trainer. I spend a big part of every week interviewing and speaking with instructor candidates from all over the world, and Andrew is working tirelessly teaching IDC's.

It's a relatively long process to cross over or start from scratch. The IDC consists of four modules (registration, class prep, academic, and foundational) which gets you through the recreational classes and specialties, then there are additional modules for Tech, Trimix, Overhead, etc. And although we've kept the cost reasonable, there is still a financial commitment to go through the program.

There are no paper crossovers, no gimme's, everyone does the complete program. Which means this training is not for everyone, and finding those unique people - divers who want to become the best instructors they can, who can take the time and spend the money, is a methodical process.

We don't advertise for instructors, it's all word of mouth (or word of internet). This year, most of those people have been showing up in Europe. But just over the past four or five weeks, I've started having more conversations with domestic instructors. We're now making plans for an IDC in the pacific northwest and one in the mid-west. As we accept candidates into the program from the east coast, we'll add an IDC there, also.

It's an organic process to grown an instructor corps. UTD is not for everyone, and we spend a lot of time with each person who calls making sure expectations on both side can be met. So we will continue to add instructors at a pace we can manage while holding the line on finding the best people we can, regardless of where they live.

If you are interested, feel free to contact me. jeff@unifiedteamdiving.com. I'm happy to schedule a call with anyone.

And we have a group on the website for instructors from all agencies:
UTD Groups - All Agency Instructors
If you're currently teaching through any agency, please join the group...the discussions have been really interesting.

Best,

Jeff

Jeff,
Thank you for the very thoughtful and informative post. What the organization has accomplished in such a short period of time is truly incredible and should not be the butt of my humor which gets the best of me as everyone has come to learn. I will in fact call you in the immediate future to discuss my goals and how UTD can help me accomplish them. Keep up the good work! Scott

 

[Rainer]

I don't use a gauge to calculate my average depth. I agree, though, that the average should start on the bottom (ignoring the descent) to remain conservative. Lingering shallow and trying to average that portion into the entire dive could lead, as you note, to a shallower average if you're not careful.

When you guys take your average depth, are you including the descent portion of the dive? As far as I am aware the Uwatec bottom timers can't be reset once you hit depth, unlike say a UWATEC TEC 2 G in gauge mode, where the average depth can be reset. I am not a DIR diver, but I have been reading up on RD over the last few days, purely out of interest and to further my understanding of various decompression models.

Once thing I came across during my reading was this issue of including the descent in the average depth, which is something that happens with the Uwatec bottom times. Depending on the speed of your descent, this can result in a significantly shallower average depth than you would get if you reset the average depth after your descent was complete.

Hope this helps!

By the way, what do GUE/UTD teach in terms of diving at altitude?

 

[rjack321]

Ascent profile from memory (I am in Cozumel at the moment and don't have my wet notes):

Planned

Ascent to 90
90 (1)
80 (1)
70 (1)
60 (2)
50 (3)
40 (4)
30 (6)
20 (15)
Ascent (3-5)

Actual (changed due to 3 minutes extra BT)

Ascent to 90
90 (1)
80 (1)
70 (1)
60 (2)
50 (3)
40 (5)
30 (7)
20 (17)
Ascent (3-5)

I was hoping to see what you actually did profilewise. People deviate from schedules all the time, usually it adds up to a minute or maybe 2. Sometimes more tho.

 

[rjack321]

When you guys take your average depth, are you including the descent portion of the dive? As far as I am aware the Uwatec bottom timers can't be reset once you hit depth, unlike say a UWATEC TEC 2 G in gauge mode, where the average depth can be reset. I am not a DIR diver, but I have been reading up on RD over the last few days, purely out of interest and to further my understanding of various decompression models.

Once thing I came across during my reading was this issue of including the descent in the average depth, which is something that happens with the Uwatec bottom times. Depending on the speed of your descent, this can result in a significantly shallower average depth than you would get if you reset the average depth after your descent was complete.

Hope this helps!

By the way, what do GUE/UTD teach in terms of diving at altitude?

"Average depth" starts either when you reach the bottom or when you pass your first deco gas. I.e. Dinking around shallow doesn't count but the definition of shallow can vary depending on the total profile.

We deco for the dive, not the altitude, as boomX described earlier.

 

[radagalf]

If you are interested, feel free to contact me. jeff@unifiedteamdiving.com. I'm happy to schedule a call with anyone.

And we have a group on the website for instructors from all agencies:
UTD Groups - All Agency Instructors
If you're currently teaching through any agency, please join the group...the discussions have been really interesting.

Best,Jeff

There is a particular thread which compares UTD training versus TDI that I found extremely interesting. I recommend anyone interested go check that out.

I also have had very interesting and informative dialogue with Todd Powell from UTD. I definitely find that their approach is very more open-minded than the DIR'rs of 2002, which was when I was last seriously following these topics.