Difference between wreck and cave diving?

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I'm with you on this Walter. I have no interest in diving in a place where a simple oops moment has such severe consequences. ;)

I dunno Dave, wrecks carry their own consequences. I think one of the biggest danger in cave is the distance you can find yourself from OW, but in wrecks there are more things that can go wrong. Each requires the management of it's own special skillset.
 
I'm with you on this Walter. I have no interest in diving in a place where a simple oops moment has such severe consequences. ;)

That can happen in wrecks or caves. In either case you prepare as best you can and stay calm while you work out a solution to the problem.

People who dive in either wrecks or caves will eventually find themselves in an "oops" moment that can have severe consequences, if not dealt with promptly and calmly. In most cases, conditioned responses and preparedness take over and you'll get out of it with nothing more than a resolution to not make that mistake again.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I dunno Dave, wrecks carry their own consequences. I think one of the biggest danger in cave is the distance you can find yourself from OW, but in wrecks there are more things that can go wrong. Each requires the management of it's own special skillset.

Yeah that's sort of the way I see it too. Caves aren't full of undetonated explosives and/or many other dangers that wreck divers face...In some ways wreck diving is considerably more dangerous than cave diving..... but on a wreck you're never as far from open water as you are in a cave.... and unlike in a wreck, every wrong turn in a cave could be your last....

Each has its own unique risks.

R..
 
I dunno Dave, wrecks carry their own consequences. I think one of the biggest danger in cave is the distance you can find yourself from OW, but in wrecks there are more things that can go wrong. Each requires the management of it's own special skillset.


True enough but wrecks diving for me does not include any sort of penetration. I just dived the Yukon and Ruby E in San Diego Sunday where some guys when penetrated but for me, I was more interested in the life on the outside.;)
 
That's wreck diving, of course, but a different type of wreck diving than I believe Deefstes had in mind with his question.
 
I'm going to return o the original post and add a little something different--history. I will admit up front that I do no have a lot of direct knowledge of what I am about to speak, but am instead summarizing impressions I have from reading and hearing from others. Those with more knowledge should feel free to set me straight.

I got the impression (especially from reading both The Last Dive and Shadow Divers) that the two activities evolved separately, and thus had some differing approaches to the same issues. I believe that there is now more communication among the groups and sharing of methodologies. Thus some of what I describe may no longer be true.

One of these is the use of buddies. I have the impression that many wreck divers tended in the past to have a "go it alone" approach to diving, with the philosophy that a buddy is more likely to bring problems for you than bring help. Cave divers tend to be team oriented in their approaches.

Another is the approach toward finding your way around. Wreck divers used an approach called "progressive penetration," whereby they got to know the wreck a little at a time. Cave divers ran line and followed it back out. It is my understanding that cave divers moving to wreck diving brought with them the use of a line for navigation.

The last one I will mention is very controversial and might generate a lot of heat. In some wreck diving circles, the prevalent view was (is?) that you're in a rusting out hulk with some interesting items--take whatever you can get as a souvenir. (That is why there was an earlier reference to chisels and crowbars in this thread.) My sense is that cave divers had more of a "leave it as it is" approach.
 
Thanks for the interesting comments all. I'd be curious to hear more opinions on boulderjohn's post. I think what prompted this question of mine to start off with was having recently read Shadow Divers (what a riveting book!) and noticing the different approach that the Rouses used.
 
I think he states it pretty well. The use of lines in wrecks was contorversial, in part because it allowed recent arrivals to make penetrations that would have taken years to acheive with progressive penetration and I think much of the objection from the wreck community was along the lines of cave divers using lines getting spetacular penetrations in short order and in essence not "paying their dues" so to speak. Progressive wreck penetration obviously favors the local zip code diver and for the NE wreck divers, cave divers were just visitors. I don't think it is much of an issue anymore.

Conservation is indeed a big issue. Cave divers are trained from the start to have as little impact on the cave as possible, with perfect bouyancy, no contact, leave no marks, etc. There is a definite anbd agreed upon understanding in the cave community that caves take thousands if not millions of years to replace so what we have is all we are ever going to have.

There is some variance as some cave divers don't really give it the focus they should (IMHO). In N FL this September I saw some incredibly deep hand and gouge marks in what were recently flooded and fairly fresh cave floors. There are sadly way too many cave divers who skills frankly suck and should stay out of the cave environment until they improve, or care enough not to engage in what amounts to slob diving. (But to be fair, in the wreck community, no one would notice.) From a slightly different direction, In many caves where scooters are used, you can see shroud shaped gouges in the silt or clay on the floor and damage to the ceiling from tank impacts is common - as are many posts made by cave divers saying something to the effect "Me and my buddy were 4000' back in XXXX in a low bedding plane when he caromed off the ceiling and silted out the whole cave". (Not to bash all scooter divers, but the conservation ethics and expectations surrounding the practice in general could be improved - and oddly it is usually the buddy who screwed up, so I suspect there is at least some guilt over the damage.)

In any case, in the cave community your reputation in large part depends on your skills at leaving a cave untouched and in upholding a very strong conservation ethic. It gets fuzzy when divers start sacrificing that principle in pursuit of longer pentration and exploration (and/or the bragging rights that come with it) that a few feel overrides the needs for conservation.

In the wreck commnity, bragging rights seems to come from how much crap you have brought up from any given wreck. The argument is that the sea is rusting everything away and if divers do not "salvage" it, it will be lost forever. That was probably true when there were very few wreck divers and very few diving below 100-130', where only a hand full of divers would ever see a given artifact on a deeper wreck, but it is hard to make that arguement and have it sound credible today. I think to some extent the ethics in the wreck community will change and perhaps are changing to some degree, but there are still strong undertones of "get it before someone else does" so any true change will require a truce of sorts where everyone agrees to leave stuff in place for future divers to enjoy.

Wrecks are also limited in the respect that major ship wrecks in diveable waters are now very rare to due to improved navigation, improved weather forecasting, improved salvage capabilities and the lack of a world war for the last 65 years. At some point the wreck community will have to acknowledge that wrecks (other than rather uninteresting artifical reefs) are a non-renewable resource and that damaging the wreck and the accretions that protect it to remove artifacts speeds the deterioration of a wreck, particularly with ever larger numbers of divers on them.

All of that is said from the perspective of a wreck diver turned cave diver, who prefers the latter by a large margin, so it has a definite bias to it. But the probable comments on those remarks may shed some more light on the motivational differneces and differences in priorities between the wreck and cave community.

Solo diving is not quite as clear cut as boulderjohn suggests. DIR/GUE/UTD divers will pretty much avoid solo diving on general principel whether it is in a wreck or a cave. Some wreck divers will see benefits to the team and also to the solo approach depending on the situation and the same is true for some cave divers. For example, dives in very tight and silty tunnels may be dives where some cave divers may prefer to be solo as getting out may be quicker and or easier solo than in a team. There is probably more variation with in the cave and the wreck communities on this issue than between the cave and wreck communities.
 
My question is for those commenting on air bubbles causing falling debrie ahead.

Anyone have a regulator or any air integrated device freeflow while in an overhead environment? I can't imagine the effect from that. Anyone know of anyone who had this happen?
 

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