Did you attend the march for science?

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Shouldn't your complaint be the allocation of the Federal budget?

The military gets about 54% of the discretionary budget (~600 Billion $)

Well, your stats are way off.. and you are not even quoting the false narrative correctly which claims 57%

A more accurate analysis shows 16.2% being spent on Defence / Homeland security.

Pie chart of 'federal spending' circulating on the Internet is misleading

But I would argue further, that providing for our common Defence IS a core obligation of our federal government. Where as funding grants for science is not.
 
Well, your stats are way off.. and you are not even quoting the false narrative correctly which claims 57%

A more accurate analysis shows 16.2% being spent on Defence / Homeland security.

Pie chart of 'federal spending' circulating on the Internet is misleading

But I would argue further, that providing for our common Defence IS a core obligation of our federal government. Where as funding grants for science is not.

Sigh. . . please read my post again, and re-read your referenced article.

There is mandatory and discretionary spending in the budget. My stats were from 2015 (the most recent I could easily locate).

And Defense is spelled with a "s", not a "c" :banghead:
 
This thread is just a proxy for the climate change discussion on numerous other threads.
 
Sigh. . . please read my post again, and re-read your referenced article.

Did you actually read it? It shows how looking only at the discretionary budget is very misleading.

There is mandatory and discretionary spending in the budget. My stats were from 2015 (the most recent I could easily locate).

The article I referred to also uses 2015 DATA. ..So what's your point?

And Defense is spelled with a "s", not a "c" :banghead:

Good job! I am surprised you found only one mistake/typo. Does that make you feel superior?

Very typical move to just try and take a condescending tone because I misspelled a word on an internet forum.

..Wish I could find a cute emogi to convey how I really feel about your post.
 
I suppose a lot of it depends on how you define a scientist. I find it hard to believe based upon the speeches and interviews I saw; I didn't see anything about improving peer review, avoiding consensus science which hurts credibility, remaining apolitical again for credibility and you know actual scientific things versus political discussions.
I saw Bill Nye speaking at one of the marches and getting rousing cheers for his politically charged catch phrases. It reminded me of this fact;

Bill Nye (The Science Guy) has a BS in Mechanical Engineering from Cornell. While working at Boeing he won a Steve Martin lookalike contest and decided to become an entertainer instead.

Action film star Dolph Lundgren graduated from The Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm and completed his Master’s Degree in Chemical Engineering on an exchange program with the University of Sydney in Australia. Graduating at the head of his class, Dolph was then awarded a Fulbright scholarship to the prestigious Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Boston.

Who is more qualified to speak at a science march?
 
And finally, let's put waste into perspective. Total spending on basic science in the US amounts to about 6.5% of our annual military budget and it makes up about 1% of the total US spending. So about 1% of the taxes you pay goes to support basic science.

We should scrutinize all federal spending, including defense spending. In order to have that type of discussion though there needs to be a way to try to somehow determine what amount of spending in these different areas makes sense, and lets be honest that is an extremely difficult discussion to have and remain objective.

Otherwise how can anyone have a meaningful opinion on if 1/15 the spending on general science compared to defense makes good sense?

I would love for our University systems to provide annual budgets for science funding. Instead, they pay multimillion dollar coaching salaries and stadiums, all the while taking extra money out of the general operating fund to keep it afloat.

Is that true? I know there are a lot of athletic programs that do way more than pay for themselves but perhaps that isn't the norm.

Kind of getting back to what you and Skeptic were both getting at... the average person would rather support a University football team rather than truly support Universities as institutions of higher learning. I have this fantasy where University scientists get an annual budget and the football team has to compete for limited grant funding to go to an away game!

I think we can agree, there is a lot wrong with our current university system including the federal government being a big part of why tuition is sky rocketing and loans are being given to students for degrees with little hope of being able to find a job that can pay back the massive loan. Never mind the issue of political ideologies on campuses and attacks on the 1st amendment. No way we can cover all the flaws regarding public science funding in one thread!

I saw Bill Nye speaking at one of the marches and getting rousing cheers for his politically charged catch phrases. It reminded me of this fact;

Bill Nye (The Science Guy) has a BS in Mechanical Engineering from Cornell. While working at Boeing he won a Steve Martin lookalike contest and decided to become an entertainer instead.

Action film star Dolph Lundgren graduated from The Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm and completed his Master’s Degree in Chemical Engineering on an exchange program with the University of Sydney in Australia. Graduating at the head of his class, Dolph was then awarded a Fulbright scholarship to the prestigious Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Boston.

Who is more qualified to speak at a science march?

Yep, I take Bill Nye with a grain of salt, sometimes I agree with what he is saying and sometimes I don't. And that is a very good point... he's clearly a celebrity of the movement but is he really a scientist?
 
@Joneill, sure! Warning: very long, enjoy with a cup of coffee or your favorite adult beverage!

For my project, it actually got funded on the third try and I just now wrapped up that five year project. The project was a joint venture between myself and two other research labs. My share of the funding was $415,000 for five years. So that works out to $83,000 per year for each year of the project.

The project was aimed at understanding how frogs choose their mates. To do this, I invented a robotic frog to mimic a live, male frog so that we could test hypotheses regarding female frog mate choice. On the basis of this description, I can see where a lot of people might complain that this is exactly that kind of waste we don't need in science.

So what did you get for your tax dollars?

First, we discovered a new mechanism of evolution. It's been known for decades that female mate choice is an important mechanism of evolutionary change. In short, males that make mating displays that don't "cut the muster" don't mate, and their genes don't go in the next generation. So in essence female choice drives the evolution of male display traits. So what we discovered is that these tiny female frogs (about 2 grams), evaluate male advertisement calls as well as the movement of their vocal sac (a visual cue). So in the noisy rainforest, females use the visual cue of the moving vocal sac, in much the same way the human listeners lip read to improve speech comprehension at noisy parties. We also discovered that even though the vocal sac as a visual cue improves female auditory discrimination, there are also limits to this. At some point, background noise in the auditory channel and changes in the timing of the vocal sac movement completely change how females perceive the male mating signal. In addition, male frogs pay attention to both when they hear a rival's call and when they feel the water ripples from his motion in the water. They use these arrival time differences to assess how far away their potential rival is, much the same way that you can estimate how far away a storm is by paying attention to when you see the lighting versus when you hear the thunder.

In sum, what we discovered was that these tiny little frog brains are integrating multiple streams of sensory information to figure out where things are in the noisy world around them. How females do this then dictates how they perceive male mating signals (perceptual bias) and helps to explain the kind of biodiversity we see in the world around us.

But...there's more. Astoundingly, these tiny little frogs with rather simple brains and some different architecture (relative to humans anyway) are able to integrate streams of sensory information in a similar way to humans. Specifically, we as humans use lip movements to improve speech comprehension, but we can be fooled by the movement of the lips. In particular, changing the shape or timing of lip movements actually changes the way you hear a sound. It's called the McGurk effect and you can try it for yourself in this link. It'll actually blow your mind!


We found that the frogs actually experience something analagous to the McGurk effect. Further, they are sensitive to a visual cue that lags an auditory cue by more than 200 milliseconds. This is almost exactly the same sensitivity that human listeners have when they begin to notice that an the audio is not synched to the lip movements in a video. Further, the influence of noise also changes how frogs perceive auditory signals. So what this tells us is that there are some fundamental processes in the vertebrate brain that ingrate auditory and visual cues. To date, we still don't have a complete understanding of human auditory perception nor understand very well why humans with hearing deficits have an even harder time hearing in noise. Our work suggesting these fundamental neural processes governing vertebrate hearing can shed some light on human hearing deficits. In fact, our work has spurred a collaboration with a neurophysiologist on exactly this problem.

The next thing we did was to take genetic samples from all of our frogs. So we have a genetic sample linked to the behavior for each frog. We used the genetic sample to run a next ten sequencing analysis that provides a high-resolution look at the genetics of these frogs across their genome. The basic information we can get from this (analysis still in progress) is understanding the movement patterns, mate choice patterns, and overall genetic diversity in the population that can be used for conservation (as amphibians are in trouble everywhere).

Ok, so what else did we do with the money? We provided tuition and a poverty-level wage to fund four students to get their master's degree. One student has gone on to do a Ph.D., one now works for a biotech start up company, one has just been accepted into a Ph.D. program and the fourth is still working on it. In particular, the student now at the biotech start up was the only non-Ph.D. researcher they hired and they hired her because of her strong back ground with the next-gem sequencing. We trained two postdoctoral teaching scholars how to teach in the University setting. In addition to the grad students, we took ten undergraduate students to Panama for three months at a time and taught them how to conduct behavioral and genetic research. So these ten students got a full funded trip and walked away knowing how to conduct behavioral science in the tropics. Most of these students could not afford to do this on their own dime and most were also women and minorities. They've all gone on to careers in nursing, physical therapy, graduate school, or teaching science.

In addition we took our actual genetic samples into the undergraduate classroom and taught 120 undergraduate students how to conduct this cutting edge genetic technique on real samples (not some canned lab we found in a lab manual). Those students now have a very powerful, modern technique in their tool belt that they can put on their CV when looking for grad school or jobs.

We built a display in a museum in Panama that shows the amphibian diversity of that country and to date has reached over 50,000 school children.

Aside from spending money on tuition for students, we hired a small US company to build the robotic frog for us. This company employed 4 engineers to work on the project and in total, we spend around $25K on it. Aside from giving us a robotic frog for the research, the technology has been incorporated by the company into other interactive educational displays. We bought two acoustic chambers (around $40k each) from ETS-Lindgren, an Austin, TX based company. We bought computer/software systems (around $20k) from a Dutch company, but the system came from Virginia employing all US workers. All travel to Panama for the field work was done on US-based carriers. While working in Panama, we paid fees to work at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, which helps to support the US Smithsonian's work in the tropics.

So to briefly sum it all up...we made discoveries of a new mechanism driving biodiversity (perceptual bias). We found that this cognitive process in the frogs is analogous to human audio-visual integration and may help to explain hearing deficits in humans. We trained four graduate students, 130 undergraduate students, and two post-doctoral scholars, providing them with a rigorous scientific education!
 
Did you actually read it? It shows how looking only at the discretionary budget is very misleading.

man·da·to·ry
ˈmandəˌtôrē/
adjective
  1. 1.
    required by law or rules; compulsory.
dis·cre·tion·ar·y
dəˈskreSHəˌnerē/
adjective
  1. available for use at the discretion of the user.
Sorry, but it doesn't seem very complicated to me. Out of the pool of money that the government is not required to pay out, the military budget is some 54%.

If you went back and looked at your article, the quote they reference was:
Says 57 percent of federal spending goes to the military and just 1 percent goes to food and agriculture, including food stamps.

Notice the difference?

The original point was (and still is), our nation spends more on defense than the next six countries COMBINED (btw this includes China and Russia).

As one noted left-wing activist said:
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. [...] Is there no other way the world may live?"

(hint: he was the last general to serve as President)
 
Is that true? I know there are a lot of athletic programs that do way more than pay for themselves but perhaps that isn't the norm.

Yes, very few football programs are self-sustaing. There was a report a number of years ago that showed that less than 12 (I think) University football programs are self-sustaining. All the rest take money from the general operating fund.
 
@Joneill, sure! Warning: very long, enjoy with a cup of coffee or your favorite adult beverage!

For my project, it actually got funded on the third try and I just now wrapped up that five year project. The project was a joint venture between myself and two other research labs. My share of the funding was $415,000 for five years. So that works out to $83,000 per year for each year of the project.

The project was aimed at understanding how frogs choose their mates. To do this, I invented a robotic frog to mimic a live, male frog so that we could test hypotheses regarding female frog mate choice. On the basis of this description, I can see where a lot of people might complain that this is exactly that kind of waste we don't need in science.

So what did you get for your tax dollars?

First, we discovered a new mechanism of evolution. It's been known for decades that female mate choice is an important mechanism of evolutionary change. In short, males that make mating displays that don't "cut the muster" don't mate, and their genes don't go in the next generation. So in essence female choice drives the evolution of male display traits. So what we discovered is that these tiny female frogs (about 2 grams), evaluate male advertisement calls as well as the movement of their vocal sac (a visual cue). So in the noisy rainforest, females use the visual cue of the moving vocal sac, in much the same way the human listeners lip read to improve speech comprehension at noisy parties. We also discovered that even though the vocal sac as a visual cue improves female auditory discrimination, there are also limits to this. At some point, background noise in the auditory channel and changes in the timing of the vocal sac movement completely change how females perceive the male mating signal. In addition, male frogs pay attention to both when they hear a rival's call and when they feel the water ripples from his motion in the water. They use these arrival time differences to assess how far away their potential rival is, much the same way that you can estimate how far away a storm is by paying attention to when you see the lighting versus when you hear the thunder.

In sum, what we discovered was that these tiny little frog brains are integrating multiple streams of sensory information to figure out where things are in the noisy world around them. How females do this then dictates how they perceive male mating signals (perceptual bias) and helps to explain the kind of biodiversity we see in the world around us.

But...there's more. Astoundingly, these tiny little frogs with rather simple brains and some different architecture (relative to humans anyway) are able to integrate streams of sensory information in a similar way to humans. Specifically, we as humans use lip movements to improve speech comprehension, but we can be fooled by the movement of the lips. In particular, changing the shape or timing of lip movements actually changes the way you hear a sound. It's called the McGurk effect and you can try it for yourself in this link. It'll actually blow your mind!


We found that the frogs actually experience something analagous to the McGurk effect. Further, they are sensitive to a visual cue that lags an auditory cue by more than 200 milliseconds. This is almost exactly the same sensitivity that human listeners have when they begin to notice that an the audio is not synched to the lip movements in a video. Further, the influence of noise also changes how frogs perceive auditory signals. So what this tells us is that there are some fundamental processes in the vertebrate brain that ingrate auditory and visual cues. To date, we still don't have a complete understanding of human auditory perception nor understand very well why humans with hearing deficits have an even harder time hearing in noise. Our work suggesting these fundamental neural processes governing vertebrate hearing can shed some light on human hearing deficits. In fact, our work has spurred a collaboration with a neurophysiologist on exactly this problem.

The next thing we did was to take genetic samples from all of our frogs. So we have a genetic sample linked to the behavior for each frog. We used the genetic sample to run a next ten sequencing analysis that provides a high-resolution look at the genetics of these frogs across their genome. The basic information we can get from this (analysis still in progress) is understanding the movement patterns, mate choice patterns, and overall genetic diversity in the population that can be used for conservation (as amphibians are in trouble everywhere).

Ok, so what else did we do with the money? We provided tuition and a poverty-level wage to fund four students to get their master's degree. One student has gone on to do a Ph.D., one now works for a biotech start up company, one has just been accepted into a Ph.D. program and the fourth is still working on it. In particular, the student now at the biotech start up was the only non-Ph.D. researcher they hired and they hired her because of her strong back ground with the next-gem sequencing. We trained two postdoctoral teaching scholars how to teach in the University setting. In addition to the grad students, we took ten undergraduate students to Panama for three months at a time and taught them how to conduct behavioral and genetic research. So these ten students got a full funded trip and walked away knowing how to conduct behavioral science in the tropics. Most of these students could not afford to do this on their own dime and most were also women and minorities. They've all gone on to careers in nursing, physical therapy, graduate school, or teaching science.

In addition we took our actual genetic samples into the undergraduate classroom and taught 120 undergraduate students how to conduct this cutting edge genetic technique on real samples (not some canned lab we found in a lab manual). Those students now have a very powerful, modern technique in their tool belt that they can put on their CV when looking for grad school or jobs.

We built a display in a museum in Panama that shows the amphibian diversity of that country and to date has reached over 50,000 school children.

Aside from spending money on tuition for students, we hired a small US company to build the robotic frog for us. This company employed 4 engineers to work on the project and in total, we spend around $25K on it. Aside from giving us a robotic frog for the research, the technology has been incorporated by the company into other interactive educational displays. We bought two acoustic chambers (around $40k each) from ETS-Lindgren, an Austin, TX based company. We bought computer/software systems (around $20k) from a Dutch company, but the system came from Virginia employing all US workers. All travel to Panama for the field work was done on US-based carriers. While working in Panama, we paid fees to work at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, which helps to support the US Smithsonian's work in the tropics.

So to briefly sum it all up...we made discoveries of a new mechanism driving biodiversity (perceptual bias). We found that this cognitive process in the frogs is analogous to human audio-visual integration and may help to explain hearing deficits in humans. We trained four graduate students, 130 undergraduate students, and two post-doctoral scholars, providing them with a rigorous scientific education!
Thanks - not sure this is really meaningful research to spend tax dollars on. I do not have the time to research the merits on my own (nor necessarily the subject matter expertise), but I do appreciate you providing the details and wish you the best in turning this into something beneficial.

While this particular project is not that large an amount of $ (and certainty much less than the $1.3MM I saw was spent on showing how a beer Koozie keeps beer cold :)), there are many grants that will add up when taken as whole and we need to be "choiceful" in what gets funded and what doesn't - to me there needs to be a clear path to a benefit from the outcome. In my opinion, we don't have the means to fund research for the sake of research (nor should we).

I for one am disgusted by the tax rates I pay only to also have deductions limited and have to foot the whole bill for sending my kids to college as I make "too much money" in the eyes of government. In the end, a rather large portion of my higher earnings gets negated by the progressive double taxation that I effectively get hit with (directly and indirectly). Unfortunately, we seem to be living in a time where many want to essentially penalize folks who work hard to get ahead financially (comfortable, but by no means "rich") and take back much of the advantage that that hard work was supposed to to give them so the playing field is "equal" - it's funny, as I'm the son of immigrants (LEGAL) who came here with the clothes on their back and refused to take any government assistance/preferential treatment, yet myself and my brothers and sister all figured out how to work hard and get ahead on our own... that used to be the beauty of living in the in the USA... Rant over.

On a side note, I did not realize that these grants provide tuition subsidies either - but if this is a cost effective way to get research done, it would make sense.
 
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