did anyone see that ridiculous on the edge show that was on last night?

[dscheck]

Good read. Just one newb question, what kind of a dive is Pete Hobson referring to here: "We wanted to do a anal dive in the Midas Chambers and pull the lines out of there as well but the compressor finally gave out so we only had the air left in our partly used tanks to do what we could."

For those who didn't read the article, those guys were basically broke. They took what they were given by the sponsors and did the dives with it because that was their dream. They knew the risks.

I believe this is a typo and should read

"...final dive in the Midas Chambers...."

 

[Allison Finch]

Yes, to descend in the Pearse resurgence their way was terribly misguided this day and age. Back in the day, 250 on air was all we had. The Diria was dived a lot with only air. It has issues with narcosis and decompression that is eased when using trimix. But it was all we had.

The really dumb issue they had was the fact that they were diving deeper and deeper to "get used to the narcosis" so it wouldn't bother them so much. HAW!!!

 

[Gary D.]

Cars weren’t invented with “Air Bags”; they didn’t even have hydraulic brakes let alone discs. Planes didn’t have closed cockpits, O2 or even seatbelts.

In my lifetime TV has gone from a half a dozen stations in Black & White on a 10” screen to way to many stations to count and HDTV that won’t fit in m most houses.

Still within my lifetime computers went from being the size of a small house and having enough power to figure a simple addition problem, to being the size of a small watch and running the world.

Almost everything we do is a process of evolution to improve what ever it is. Thirty years from now the “Gas of the Gods” could be the killer gas that everyone shuns. But then I bet anything over 30’ on air, without “Split Fins”, a color correcting mask, integrated weights in soft pouches, a vis less than 40’ and gear not labeled “Scuba-Pro” will kill you.

Our limits have both been expanded and safety greatly improved at the same time. It is a total shame when groups,l like these guys, will not take advantage of what that evolution has given us. If the cost was going to be to high wait a little longer and raise more money. Most expeditions are done with a lot of baby steps and not a giant leap.

I’m still amazed we have lived this long.

Gary D.

 

[Rick Inman]

I’m still amazed we have lived this long.

Gary D.

Don't mind Gary. If you made a life of dragging the dead bodied of drunk, stupid Darwin winners out of polluted muck-ponds, and then have to explain it to their families, you'd be a little cynical, too.

 

[jjoeldm]

I understand why everyone is upset with this documentary, but generalized statements like "they are all fubar" and "lucky they are not all dead" is a little harsh and judgmental.

All film makers, whether fiction or non tend to glorify the subject of their films, lets put that aside.

Kieran McKay and Pete Hobson are two of the most experience cave divers in NZ, plus this expedition was 10 years ago. Who could afford to haul in enough O2 and Helium bottles miles from nowhere to last as long as they planned their expedition? They were lucky enough to get a compressor onsite.

If Dave Weaver had not died, then this discussion would probably have a differnet tone, but he did and it is his own fault, not the expeditions.

Here is a little more reading for anyone interested in learning how reckless Dave was
http://nzcaver.org/htg/articles/pearse.htm

These guys were pioneers and groups continue to dive the Pearce Resurgence.

Here is a ton of info about the Pearce
http://www.deepdiving.net/index.html

And remember the first person to touch the Andrea Doria was on a single 72 Steel tank breathing air, I don't hear everyone calling Peter Gimble crazy, cluster etc.... Gary Gentile, John Chatterton, Richie Kohler, etc... all dove and penetrated the Doria on air, why not the harsh critism on these guys? People died on these trips, but I don't hear the crowds disecting the plans, equipment and/or responses to these incidents?

I like to give the benefit of the doubt until I can acquire enough information to judge, I do not believe the National Geographic Documentary provided enough info.

I for one would not take such risks, other people love the risk and live or die with the consequences. If it wasn't for people pushing the limits what kind of advances would we make?

This wasn't "pushing the limits" these divers went there specifically to get someone killed. And there wasn't any "advance" at stake here, this was a regression by any standard. It took me about a minute, looking at their gear, listening to their diving "philosophy" and approach to realize how completely and utterly clueless this group was. Their rigs were complete clusterf---s, their decision to dive in a cold, deep cave on air at a time when Trimix is widely available, moronic and having made that decision their approach to even doing THAT with some level of "safety" (there's no such thing in this circumstance) was almost non-existent. I followed up the show with a read of one team member's website on the expedition and was even more depressed and pissed-off about the whole thing.

Let's really fix the blame correctly: the expedition "leader" is at fault here. He was the most experienced, he was in charge. He should have told Dave, "you're not ready"; that is assuming he had the sense to do so once he committed his team to deep air diving in a cave. One comment of many: one of the team members said she depended on Dave to get her out if there was a problem. Now THAT is a BIG red flag! There were several such comments.

Explorers were diving 'mix in Diepolder in 1980, Exley dove Mante on 'mix in 1988. Europe, the US, Mexico, the Bahamas all saw exploration dives in the '80's using Trimix. Yes, back then people made the decision to dive air deep in caves, but if you read the accident reports of this era going forward you see more and more deep air deaths. At some point (and certainly we were all at this point by 1995) you say, "whoa!" and get real about it.

Once 'mix became commercially and privately available, doing deep air dives, especially extended cave dives was nuts and it was nuts in this case. These folks were not up to the dives they were doing. You can see it in the video, you can see it in their eyes.

This video is a cautionary tale and should be regarded as such. It should be shown before every cave and 'mix class. And then the class asked, "Tell me everything they did WRONG!" It may be hyperbole, but my feeling is that they didn't do ANYTHING right. They apparently allowed their buddies to dive dangerous rigs (read the article http://www.nzcaver.org/htg/articles/pearse.htm) on deep air dives and even dove solo dives on air to dangerous depths including the filmmaker who left the team and tore his drysuit on the way out . . . solo. The list goes on . . . .

There isn't enough space or time to list everything wrong about this expedition. 1995 isn't that long ago and it was during a time when safe cave diving techniques were well known and widely discussed. As one of the team members said, Trimix was available, they just decided it was too expensive. There is no excuse for what this team did. I feel bad for the family of the deceased and I hope someday the team members will come to a full realization of what they participated in and someday will start to talk realistically about it to younger divers, warning them of what can happen when you don't first acquire the most important and necessary piece of equipment: a clear and experienced head.

JoeL

 

[jjoeldm]

This cave apparently attracts this sort of mentality even today:

http://www.deepdiving.net/solo.html

I love this part:

"3). On the dive I couldn’t unclip my cylinders, and couldn’t get to second rebreather buttons properly.
Exited the pond about one hour later. (thought about packing up & walking out to go help the guys at Riwaka)”REALLY F--KED OFF AND DEJECTED!!”
I've been reading “Beyond the Deep” by Bill Stone and remember how it is said that one of his qualities is that he will not give up on the expedition goals even when things are really turning bad and at all time lows. I’m staying I thought. It’s 1-0 to the Pearse but it’s the best of 4! (days diving)"

Bill Stone. Didn't he get a few guys killed too???

JoeL

 

[Azza]

their decision to dive in a cold, deep cave on air at a time when Trimix is widely available

Trimix wasn't, and still isn't, widely available in New Zealand. Its about $1100 for a G, which will give you 2 fills in a set of 12L doubles, or 3 if you have a haskel.
Also you cannot just wander into a shop and buy it here. You must go directly to the Gas supplier and then mix your own.

Explorers were diving 'mix in Diepolder in 1980, Exley dove Mante on 'mix in 1988. Europe, the US, Mexico, the Bahamas all saw exploration dives in the '80's using Trimix. Yes, back then people made the decision to dive air deep in caves, but if you read the accident reports of this era going forward you see more and more deep air deaths. At some point (and certainly we were all at this point by 1995) you say, "whoa!" and get real about it.

I agree however you should know that in 1995 technical diving in New Zealand was at a level the rest of the world was at in 1975

1995 isn't that long ago and it was during a time when safe cave diving techniques were well known and widely discussed..

Nope. Not in this country they weren't.

I agree that the whole expedition was a CF and there were multiple CF's throughout the whole process.
Yes it pisses me off that they underwent this stupidity but I can understand, on some level, why they went ahead anyway.

 

[jjoeldm]

Trimix wasn't, and still isn't, widely available in New Zealand. Its about $1100 for a G, which will give you 2 fills in a set of 12L doubles, or 3 if you have a haskel.
Also you cannot just wander into a shop and buy it here. You must go directly to the Gas supplier and then mix your own.



I agree however you should know that in 1995 technical diving in New Zealand was at a level the rest of the world was at in 1975



Nope. Not in this country they weren't.

I agree that the whole expedition was a CF and there were multiple CF's throughout the whole process.
Yes it pisses me off that they underwent this stupidity but I can understand, on some level, why they went ahead anyway.

Thanks for the information on the state of New Zealand tech diving. I was just looking at a TDI New Zealand Advanced course costs page and they cited $600-$800 as the costs for all gases including oxygen, Nitrox and Trimix for four to six Trimix dives. That appears to be significantly less than what you're citing. Why the difference?

Also, TDI was teaching Trimix in New Zealand in 1994 according to their website. That seems pretty mainstreamed (for techies at least) to me, though I don't doubt the average diver would probably know nothing about it. But a group looking to explore deep, cold caves like these guys were (and who aggressively sought backing), would and did apparently have knowledge of the availability of helium, they just didn't want to pay the freight.

Looking at their set ups, I don't doubt that helium was out of their league, but then so was this dive. It's like deciding to take up base-jumping but only being able to afford a WWII surplus parachute . . . and going ahead anyway.

I understand why they went ahead. I just don't think it made any rational sense and as we see, the decisions they made directly lead to a member of the team getting killed. I've made a lot of mistakes and used poor judgement in my diving life and have been fortunate enough to have survived all of them, but you'd have to pile all of my screwups into one expedition and still probably wouldn't equal the Darwinian Jazzfest these guys engaged in.

You seem to generally agree with my conclusions and I admit that I don't really know the state of tech diving in New Zealand when they did their exploration or even now, but they certainly were:

A) Aware of the safety and efficacy of Trimix for such an endeavor
B) Knew how to acquire it and at least something about how to use it
C) But decided against using it due to cost

In 1990 I had started a skydiving course at the same time that I took up cavediving and I realized quickly that I couldn't afford both, so I dropped skydiving in favor of cave diving. There are some things that some people just cannot afford to do. I can't afford to race Nascar or Arabian horses. These guys couldn't afford deep cave diving.

The imperative to act rationally does not get suspended when one takes up a sport like cave diving. There is a school of thought out there that seems to say that it does, but all of the same physical laws apply whether you jump out of airplanes or dive in water-filled caves and those physical laws must be respected or you get flat or drowned. Either way your family pays the real costs.

The truest thing I know about cave diving is what the NSS-CDS puts on their cave signs: "There's nothing in this cave worth dying for."

Thanks for the note.

JoeL

 

[Azza]

Thanks for the information on the state of New Zealand tech diving. I was just looking at a TDI New Zealand Advanced course costs page and they cited $600-$800 as the costs for all gases including oxygen, Nitrox and Trimix for four to six Trimix dives. That appears to be significantly less than what you're citing. Why the difference?

I would be interested to see the site that states $600-$800 for all gasses. Could you post a link please? I need to have a chat with those guys if thats the case, might save myself a few dollars.
My costs are direct from the BOC Gases as to the wholesale of a "G" cylinder of UHP Helium. Maybe these guys are using balloon grade helium. If none of them have kicked the bucket using it yet then that might be an option for me.

I seriously doubt TDI was teaching Trimix in New Zealand in 1994. Could you please post the link to that also as I couldnt find it. They only formed globally in 1994 and to my knowledge (Tec is a small community over here) there are only 2 Trimix instructors over here now, one of which has only become a Trimix instructor in the last 5 years or so. I know a few guys have flown a mix instructor over here as they didnt think much of the local guys... I have no comment to make on that however.

You seem to generally agree with my conclusions

Oh absolutely I do. I just get pissed off when internet divers bang on about using Helium, and they dont have a clue as to the state of supply or cost in some places in the world. The ones that especially piss me off are the guys who say any dive over 30 metres should be a mix dive. Maybe in Florida where you can get a fill for $40. Absolutely I would be right up there with them...

Do an anonymous poll of mix divers on this board, and ask them if they would ever use air to dive deeper than 30 metres, even if they were in...say... Chukk Lagoon? I bet you a lot of them would do it simply because they aint gunna miss such great diving just because mix isn't available. I bet you not a lot would go to the expense of freighting it over there before the trip either...

My whole point was that these guys were explorers. They wanted to see where this cave came from and what was down there. This is a natural instinct for most people in this country. It’s how we are brought up. We seem to have this “Number 8 Wire” mentality where if the right tools aren’t available then we will work with what we have. This is what these guys did even though they were clearly not up to the task.

I have been down this road many a time in my life and it’s only recently I have had an inner struggle with myself to curb that instinct in my diving. Yes I too have made many silly mistakes in my diving because I wanted to go where I didn’t have the tools, or the finances to get the tools, to go.

It’s all to easy for the “cotton wool brigade” to sit back in their nice comfy chairs and slag them off. That’s really what started my rant.

Apologies if I have pissed anyone off and I will now step down from my soap box

Cheers

 

[Allison Finch]

Quote about the fact that cave diving techniques were well known....


Our poster says "Nope. Not in this country they weren't."



Well, GEEE... can't divers in NZ read???
There are good books on the subject, if nothing else.